Brazil won't emerge as a strong nation, because of people like this. Stop blaming the portuguese for something that happened centuries ago. If u dont like Portugal or portuguese start talking English, and the next time ur country wantes help, better ask england instead of Portugal
Do you like Brazilian Portuguese?
Kelly wrote
»»Olha, vou ser sincera, muitos brasileiros que nunca tiveram contato algum com portugal ainda têm dificuldades em dacar o falar fechado português, não dá pra(não se pode) ignorar isso, é a realidade»»
Todo o mundo gosta de imitar o american way of life incluindo os portugueses. A desculpa de que os brazileiros não entendem os portugueses é rectorica e teimosa.
A atração dos brazileiros pelo american way of life tem levado muitos brazileiros a emigarar para os States onde andam aqui a fazer trabalho baixo (lavar retretes). Aqui nos States os brazileiros são considerados Hispanicos. Gente do terceiro mundo. Os americanos julgam que eles falam espanhol. A moda agora é ter uma mulher a dias e um jardineiro brazileiros com quem se comunica em espanhol.
Quando os brazileiros imigram para Portugal são lá bem recebidos, encontram empregos compatíveis com as suas habilitações porque falam a mesma língua. São tratados como irmãos.
O que não podemos esquecer na realidade é que a língua portuguesa é a língua do Brazil e Portugal. Quando escrita é clara para todos. Quando falada pode apresentar variantes interessantes que, aparentemente, poderão impedir a fluidez da comunicacão. Todavia, serão situações pontuais facilmente ultrapassáveis.
Para os brazileiros que não percebem os portugueses, a solução será perguntarem, porque, na realidade, não existe barreira linguística. Apenas variantes da mesma língua. Perguntar não ofende.
»»Olha, vou ser sincera, muitos brasileiros que nunca tiveram contato algum com portugal ainda têm dificuldades em dacar o falar fechado português, não dá pra(não se pode) ignorar isso, é a realidade»»
Todo o mundo gosta de imitar o american way of life incluindo os portugueses. A desculpa de que os brazileiros não entendem os portugueses é rectorica e teimosa.
A atração dos brazileiros pelo american way of life tem levado muitos brazileiros a emigarar para os States onde andam aqui a fazer trabalho baixo (lavar retretes). Aqui nos States os brazileiros são considerados Hispanicos. Gente do terceiro mundo. Os americanos julgam que eles falam espanhol. A moda agora é ter uma mulher a dias e um jardineiro brazileiros com quem se comunica em espanhol.
Quando os brazileiros imigram para Portugal são lá bem recebidos, encontram empregos compatíveis com as suas habilitações porque falam a mesma língua. São tratados como irmãos.
O que não podemos esquecer na realidade é que a língua portuguesa é a língua do Brazil e Portugal. Quando escrita é clara para todos. Quando falada pode apresentar variantes interessantes que, aparentemente, poderão impedir a fluidez da comunicacão. Todavia, serão situações pontuais facilmente ultrapassáveis.
Para os brazileiros que não percebem os portugueses, a solução será perguntarem, porque, na realidade, não existe barreira linguística. Apenas variantes da mesma língua. Perguntar não ofende.
Brother Baiano wrote
»»I wish we had been colonized by England»»
It is never too late. Yet, I don't think the English are interested. Have you checked the Americans?
»»I wish we had been colonized by England»»
It is never too late. Yet, I don't think the English are interested. Have you checked the Americans?
»»Cuidado, minha cara Marianna, com as suas generalizações. E este comentário sobre a "moda" de ter empregados domésticos brasileiros fez-me rir...como se toda a gente nos EUA tivesse empregados domésticos em casa.»»
Estou a referir a "cleaning lady» ou seja mulher que limpa a casa à hora coisa que é muito comum nos States. Jardineiro refiro a "gardner" pessoa que trata dos relvados, também à hora, o que é facto comum nos subúrbios americanos.
Estou a referir a "cleaning lady» ou seja mulher que limpa a casa à hora coisa que é muito comum nos States. Jardineiro refiro a "gardner" pessoa que trata dos relvados, também à hora, o que é facto comum nos subúrbios americanos.
mjd wrote
»»As for your linguistic point, I am in complete agreement with you. Those who are actually making the absurd argument for the "Brazilian language" haven't made any real arguments throughout the thread. Instead they focus on bad feelings from the colonial past or weak arguments about placement of pronouns»»
We all should agree that there is the "Brazilian language". I have no issue with that. Yet, we also should agree that the "Brazilian language" is Portuguese. There is no argument. It is a fact.
That Brazilians hate their language is the argument. That Brazilians are embarassed to speak Portuguese is the argument. That Brazilians are embassed to be associated with anything Portuguese is the argument. That Brazilians are embarrassed to be Brazilians is the argument. That Brazilians blame all that on the Portuguese is the argument. It may be pathetic, unreasonable and misguided but it is real. Let's talk about that.
»»As for your linguistic point, I am in complete agreement with you. Those who are actually making the absurd argument for the "Brazilian language" haven't made any real arguments throughout the thread. Instead they focus on bad feelings from the colonial past or weak arguments about placement of pronouns»»
We all should agree that there is the "Brazilian language". I have no issue with that. Yet, we also should agree that the "Brazilian language" is Portuguese. There is no argument. It is a fact.
That Brazilians hate their language is the argument. That Brazilians are embarassed to speak Portuguese is the argument. That Brazilians are embassed to be associated with anything Portuguese is the argument. That Brazilians are embarrassed to be Brazilians is the argument. That Brazilians blame all that on the Portuguese is the argument. It may be pathetic, unreasonable and misguided but it is real. Let's talk about that.
Olha, o mundo todo diz, portugues, portugues do brasil
até o TOM TOM tem em seus 56 idiomas, portugues e brasileiro..e confesso que dirigir com sistema de navegacao em brasileiro é uma delicia.A 500m dobre a direita, observe fila no caminho mais curto, refazer o calculo?
e em portugues...quebre a sua direita depois de 500m rodados, bicha na rota menor, recalcular o trecho?....o que me dizem?sem contar o sotaque delicioso com que o brasileiro se expressa
até o TOM TOM tem em seus 56 idiomas, portugues e brasileiro..e confesso que dirigir com sistema de navegacao em brasileiro é uma delicia.A 500m dobre a direita, observe fila no caminho mais curto, refazer o calculo?
e em portugues...quebre a sua direita depois de 500m rodados, bicha na rota menor, recalcular o trecho?....o que me dizem?sem contar o sotaque delicioso com que o brasileiro se expressa
mjd wrote
»»I don't think the posts we've seen on here are typical of all Brazilians...not even the majority of Brazilians (again, you have to be careful with your generalizations). For those who don't know, Brazilians are usually the first to say "No Brasil falamos português!" »»
I will be more careful making those distinctions. I was referring to the Brazilians that support the argument that there is a "Brazilian language" which is not Portuguese. I have written here before that I believe they are in the minority. Yet the argument is to address the issue of why some Brazilians feel that way.
Here in the States there are large Brazilian communities. The majority are very friendly towards the Portuguese. They settle in the Portuguese communities and identify with the Portuguese in many ways. No problem.
Yet there are those who are antagonistic and embarassed to be associated with the Portuguese community. They make long arguments to convince outsiders that they have nothing in to do with the Portuguese. Not even the language. They want to be perceived as being somewhat superior. Yet they speak Portuguese and I would say that most of them have Portuguese last names. I have experienced this first hand.
»»I don't think the posts we've seen on here are typical of all Brazilians...not even the majority of Brazilians (again, you have to be careful with your generalizations). For those who don't know, Brazilians are usually the first to say "No Brasil falamos português!" »»
I will be more careful making those distinctions. I was referring to the Brazilians that support the argument that there is a "Brazilian language" which is not Portuguese. I have written here before that I believe they are in the minority. Yet the argument is to address the issue of why some Brazilians feel that way.
Here in the States there are large Brazilian communities. The majority are very friendly towards the Portuguese. They settle in the Portuguese communities and identify with the Portuguese in many ways. No problem.
Yet there are those who are antagonistic and embarassed to be associated with the Portuguese community. They make long arguments to convince outsiders that they have nothing in to do with the Portuguese. Not even the language. They want to be perceived as being somewhat superior. Yet they speak Portuguese and I would say that most of them have Portuguese last names. I have experienced this first hand.
Era uma vez um brasileiro
que tinha muito dinheiro
Dentro do seu mealheiro
O pai dele era padeiro
de seu nome verdadeiro
Portugues Aventureiro
que tinha muito dinheiro
Dentro do seu mealheiro
O pai dele era padeiro
de seu nome verdadeiro
Portugues Aventureiro
quote
[Brazilians settle in the Portuguese communities and identify with the Portuguese in many ways.]
Mariana, we Brazilians don't identify ourselves with Portuguese, just like Americans don't identify themselves with British. Grow up. We're an idependent nation and we don't wanna hear about Portugal anymore. Tchau!
Pra tu Mariana, eu lhe dedico a músga BOLADONA de nossa cantora Taty:
tá fazeno muito sucesso por aqui, por sinal
BOLADONA
sentada na esquina.
Esperando tu passar
altas horas da matina
Com o esquema todo armado,
esperando tu chegar
pra balançar o seu coreto
pra você de mim lembrar
Sou cachorra sou gatinha não adianta se esquivar
vou soltar a minha fera eu boto o bicho pra pegar
Sou cachorra sou gatinha não adianta se esquivar
vou soltar a minha fera eu boto o bicho pra pegar
Boladona ...
Espero que tu curta.
[Brazilians settle in the Portuguese communities and identify with the Portuguese in many ways.]
Mariana, we Brazilians don't identify ourselves with Portuguese, just like Americans don't identify themselves with British. Grow up. We're an idependent nation and we don't wanna hear about Portugal anymore. Tchau!
Pra tu Mariana, eu lhe dedico a músga BOLADONA de nossa cantora Taty:
tá fazeno muito sucesso por aqui, por sinal
BOLADONA
sentada na esquina.
Esperando tu passar
altas horas da matina
Com o esquema todo armado,
esperando tu chegar
pra balançar o seu coreto
pra você de mim lembrar
Sou cachorra sou gatinha não adianta se esquivar
vou soltar a minha fera eu boto o bicho pra pegar
Sou cachorra sou gatinha não adianta se esquivar
vou soltar a minha fera eu boto o bicho pra pegar
Boladona ...
Espero que tu curta.
<<Mariana, we Brazilians don't identify ourselves with Portuguese, just like Americans don't identify themselves with British. Grow up. We're an idependent nation and we don't wanna hear about Portugal anymore. Tchau!>>
The big difference is that Americans don't have an irrational hatred of the British and in many cases, we admire the accent. We acknowledge that we speak the same language. I also think we do identify with the British in some ways. Many Americans have British heritage (including myself).
The big difference is that Americans don't have an irrational hatred of the British and in many cases, we admire the accent. We acknowledge that we speak the same language. I also think we do identify with the British in some ways. Many Americans have British heritage (including myself).
Ana Kraudia wrote
»»Mariana, we Brazilians don't identify ourselves with Portuguese, just like Americans don't identify themselves with British. Grow up. We're an idependent nation and we don't wanna hear about Portugal anymore. Tchau! »»
Sorry Ana. Here, where I live, there is a large Brazilian community and a large Portuguese community. We share the same space and we interact a lot. Most Brazilians I know identify with the Portuguese HERE. Most of them [Brazilians] are from Portuguese background. They know where their family came from in Portugal. They like to talk abou that. They like to talk about all we have in common, which is a lot. Portuguese and Brazilians here are intermarrying. The list goes on and on. Yet there are a few like you who distance themseves from the Portuguese here. That is a fact.
For your information, the majority of American cicitzens are still from English extraction. We call them the "Anglos". They are the majority. They identify with all which is English. Our national public television here features many BBC programs that are very popular because they appeal to the majority the "Anglos". Our national public radio broadcasts news programs tottally produced in the UK. Travelling from the USA to the UK and vice versa is intense. The "Anglos" keep the English language and the English traditions alive. They also keep their religious traditions, for instance, the "Anglo" christmas. The list goes on. The rest of us may recent it, but we don't deny it. We accpet it as a fact.
At the political and diplomatic level. The USA and the UK are twin countries. They sick together in war and peace. They LOVE and support each other because they have so much in common and they identify with each other.
Ana. Shame on you. Grow up. Portugal is under your skin. There is nothing under the sun that you can do about that. Portugal and the Portuguese left an undeniable inprint on Brazil, including a mark on you.
The history, the language, the culture, the literature, the music, the food, the architecture. Even your attitude of self-hatrated is very Portuguese. Your compulsion to blame your problems on others is very Portuguese. Your attitude of admiration for those you perceive as being superior is very Portuguese. The Portuguese suffer from the same sindromes. They even blame the independence of Brazil for their demise as a world colonial power, which, actually, is an historic fact.
It is OK to be resentful it if you are in the minority. But don't deny it. It is not smart. We both speak the language of Camoes and Jorge Amado. Accept it. It is a wonderful language. It is a fact.
»»Mariana, we Brazilians don't identify ourselves with Portuguese, just like Americans don't identify themselves with British. Grow up. We're an idependent nation and we don't wanna hear about Portugal anymore. Tchau! »»
Sorry Ana. Here, where I live, there is a large Brazilian community and a large Portuguese community. We share the same space and we interact a lot. Most Brazilians I know identify with the Portuguese HERE. Most of them [Brazilians] are from Portuguese background. They know where their family came from in Portugal. They like to talk abou that. They like to talk about all we have in common, which is a lot. Portuguese and Brazilians here are intermarrying. The list goes on and on. Yet there are a few like you who distance themseves from the Portuguese here. That is a fact.
For your information, the majority of American cicitzens are still from English extraction. We call them the "Anglos". They are the majority. They identify with all which is English. Our national public television here features many BBC programs that are very popular because they appeal to the majority the "Anglos". Our national public radio broadcasts news programs tottally produced in the UK. Travelling from the USA to the UK and vice versa is intense. The "Anglos" keep the English language and the English traditions alive. They also keep their religious traditions, for instance, the "Anglo" christmas. The list goes on. The rest of us may recent it, but we don't deny it. We accpet it as a fact.
At the political and diplomatic level. The USA and the UK are twin countries. They sick together in war and peace. They LOVE and support each other because they have so much in common and they identify with each other.
Ana. Shame on you. Grow up. Portugal is under your skin. There is nothing under the sun that you can do about that. Portugal and the Portuguese left an undeniable inprint on Brazil, including a mark on you.
The history, the language, the culture, the literature, the music, the food, the architecture. Even your attitude of self-hatrated is very Portuguese. Your compulsion to blame your problems on others is very Portuguese. Your attitude of admiration for those you perceive as being superior is very Portuguese. The Portuguese suffer from the same sindromes. They even blame the independence of Brazil for their demise as a world colonial power, which, actually, is an historic fact.
It is OK to be resentful it if you are in the minority. But don't deny it. It is not smart. We both speak the language of Camoes and Jorge Amado. Accept it. It is a wonderful language. It is a fact.
Mariana wrote:
“attitude of self-hatrated is very Portuguese. Your compulsion to blame your problems on others is very Portuguese. Your attitude of admiration for those you perceive as being superior is very Portuguese. The Portuguese suffer from the same sindromes. They even blame the independence of Brazil for their demise as a world colonial power, which, actually, is an historic fact.”
Where did you learn this? Portuguese have "Self hatred and compulsion to blame others"? Never saw it.
The attitude of admiration for those perceived as being superior is common of very old people because they live still in the past.
No one that I know blames the independence of Brazil for anything. No one learns that in school, and it was our king D. João VI who made Brazil a kingdom and our king D. Pedro IV who made it independent. Portugal had other important colonies.
The Portuguese are used as the all-purpose scapegoat by Brazilians for their problems that is why many Brazilians do not want to have links with the Portuguese culture or pretend that they do no understand Eu. Portuguese, and that has been happening for quite a long time. It did not start last year or ten years ago it is deeply rooted in Brazilian society it can not be seen as being just a fashion or the believe of just a few radical minds.
Of course there are many Brazilians who can understand that the image made of the Portuguese has nothing to do with the people from Portugal but most cannot. People believe in what they were taught.
It is a social problem and has to be understood as such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat#Scapegoating
“attitude of self-hatrated is very Portuguese. Your compulsion to blame your problems on others is very Portuguese. Your attitude of admiration for those you perceive as being superior is very Portuguese. The Portuguese suffer from the same sindromes. They even blame the independence of Brazil for their demise as a world colonial power, which, actually, is an historic fact.”
Where did you learn this? Portuguese have "Self hatred and compulsion to blame others"? Never saw it.
The attitude of admiration for those perceived as being superior is common of very old people because they live still in the past.
No one that I know blames the independence of Brazil for anything. No one learns that in school, and it was our king D. João VI who made Brazil a kingdom and our king D. Pedro IV who made it independent. Portugal had other important colonies.
The Portuguese are used as the all-purpose scapegoat by Brazilians for their problems that is why many Brazilians do not want to have links with the Portuguese culture or pretend that they do no understand Eu. Portuguese, and that has been happening for quite a long time. It did not start last year or ten years ago it is deeply rooted in Brazilian society it can not be seen as being just a fashion or the believe of just a few radical minds.
Of course there are many Brazilians who can understand that the image made of the Portuguese has nothing to do with the people from Portugal but most cannot. People believe in what they were taught.
It is a social problem and has to be understood as such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat#Scapegoating
Alison wrote
»»No one that I know blames the independence of Brazil for anything. No one learns that in school, and it was our king D. João VI who made Brazil a kingdom and our king D. Pedro IV who made it independent. Portugal had other important colonies««
Fact:
Em vez de uma perspectiva de "emancipação brasileira", os efeitos da instalação da Corte joanina no Rio de Janeiro podem ser focalizados pelo ângulo da crise que provocou em Portugal. Nesse sentido, o historiador português José Hermano Saraiva (2001, p. 274) sintetizou:
O Brasil constituía então uma base essencial da economia portuguesa. A nossa exportação era quase toda (exceptuando o vinho do Porto) canalizada para os portos brasileiros; a nossa importação vinha quase toda do Brasil; as matérias-primas tropicais faziam escala em Lisboa e daqui eram reexportadas para o exterior. Todo comércio dependia desse sistema e desse tráfico vivia a marinha mercante. A emancipação econômica do Brasil teve portanto conseqüências graves na economia portuguesa. A antiga colônia passara, em poucos anos, de fonte de rendimento a fonte de despesa. Muitos dos nobres instalados na corte do Rio viviam à custa dos bens que possuíam em Portugal.
Assim, a política joanina de romper antigas subordinações do Brasil em relação à Metrópole provocou crises em Portugal. Em razão das contradições entre Colônia e Metrópole, as medidas que "libertavam" o Brasil desse sistema de exploração colonial "sufocavam", em contrapartida, Portugal.
Gilberto Cotrim. Professor de História pela USP. Mestre em Educação e História da Cultura pela Universidade Mackenzie. Autor de História Global pela Editora Saraiva.
http://www.historianet.com.br/conteudo/default.aspx?codigo=620
»»No one that I know blames the independence of Brazil for anything. No one learns that in school, and it was our king D. João VI who made Brazil a kingdom and our king D. Pedro IV who made it independent. Portugal had other important colonies««
Fact:
Em vez de uma perspectiva de "emancipação brasileira", os efeitos da instalação da Corte joanina no Rio de Janeiro podem ser focalizados pelo ângulo da crise que provocou em Portugal. Nesse sentido, o historiador português José Hermano Saraiva (2001, p. 274) sintetizou:
O Brasil constituía então uma base essencial da economia portuguesa. A nossa exportação era quase toda (exceptuando o vinho do Porto) canalizada para os portos brasileiros; a nossa importação vinha quase toda do Brasil; as matérias-primas tropicais faziam escala em Lisboa e daqui eram reexportadas para o exterior. Todo comércio dependia desse sistema e desse tráfico vivia a marinha mercante. A emancipação econômica do Brasil teve portanto conseqüências graves na economia portuguesa. A antiga colônia passara, em poucos anos, de fonte de rendimento a fonte de despesa. Muitos dos nobres instalados na corte do Rio viviam à custa dos bens que possuíam em Portugal.
Assim, a política joanina de romper antigas subordinações do Brasil em relação à Metrópole provocou crises em Portugal. Em razão das contradições entre Colônia e Metrópole, as medidas que "libertavam" o Brasil desse sistema de exploração colonial "sufocavam", em contrapartida, Portugal.
Gilberto Cotrim. Professor de História pela USP. Mestre em Educação e História da Cultura pela Universidade Mackenzie. Autor de História Global pela Editora Saraiva.
http://www.historianet.com.br/conteudo/default.aspx?codigo=620
The same problem happened when we lost our trading in India it was also essential to our economy.
But where is the factor "blame" in the text? I can not read anything that puts the blame on Brazil for our economic problems. "Blame" as it is their fault we had economic problems? I read it was a consequence of the politic measures of D. João not Brazil's fault. It all depends of your choice of words and how you interpret the text.
We could blame Brazil if we said it was Brazil’s fault but at this time Brazil was still linked to Portugal so it was the consequence of the court moving to Brazil that caused the economic problems.
Why don't we also blame the French and the Spanish? It was their fault the Portuguese court moved to Brazil.
But where is the factor "blame" in the text? I can not read anything that puts the blame on Brazil for our economic problems. "Blame" as it is their fault we had economic problems? I read it was a consequence of the politic measures of D. João not Brazil's fault. It all depends of your choice of words and how you interpret the text.
We could blame Brazil if we said it was Brazil’s fault but at this time Brazil was still linked to Portugal so it was the consequence of the court moving to Brazil that caused the economic problems.
Why don't we also blame the French and the Spanish? It was their fault the Portuguese court moved to Brazil.
»»The Portuguese are used as the all-purpose scapegoat by Brazilians for their problems »»
After Brazil's independence, the Portuguese colonists became Brazil's nation builders. Therefore the Portuguese colonists should be blamed for the mess they created. Shame on them.
Sadly, today, the majority of Brazilians are the children of those inept Portuguese colonists who ruined Brazil for them. Right?
Well, Brazilians who want to blame someone but themselves, should blame the Portuguese colonists. Not the Portuguese living in Portugal today. Blame them, your incompetent Portuguese forefathers. Defame their graves, burn their houses, reap of their pictures, earase their names from memory, rename your streets, rename your cities. Curse them. Burn them in efigy.
Even better: Go for something dramatic, like, changing the name of your country to something like "Portuguese Free-Brazil" and adopt Esperanto as your national language. Free at last. It can be done.
Just a note: Revisionist history now blames the European colonists , namely the "Anglos" , for the evils of today's American society. Read Joel Spring, Deculturalization and the Struggle for Equality.
After Brazil's independence, the Portuguese colonists became Brazil's nation builders. Therefore the Portuguese colonists should be blamed for the mess they created. Shame on them.
Sadly, today, the majority of Brazilians are the children of those inept Portuguese colonists who ruined Brazil for them. Right?
Well, Brazilians who want to blame someone but themselves, should blame the Portuguese colonists. Not the Portuguese living in Portugal today. Blame them, your incompetent Portuguese forefathers. Defame their graves, burn their houses, reap of their pictures, earase their names from memory, rename your streets, rename your cities. Curse them. Burn them in efigy.
Even better: Go for something dramatic, like, changing the name of your country to something like "Portuguese Free-Brazil" and adopt Esperanto as your national language. Free at last. It can be done.
Just a note: Revisionist history now blames the European colonists , namely the "Anglos" , for the evils of today's American society. Read Joel Spring, Deculturalization and the Struggle for Equality.