" plupart, bonheur, malheur, ainsi, peut-être, au-jour-d'hui are all like this
<<Anyway, even in a world where those exemples were with germanic origin>>
They are :) "
hehehehehe !!! I didn't know you were a funny man (or woman i don't know!)
if "bien", "heur", "venue", "mal", "au", "jour", "de"; "hui" are germanic words, then I agree with you french is germanic language !! :) !! very funny Leasman!
" Please, do some research before spouting off. guest guest, you too. "
hahahahah !!!! you definitly VERY funny tonight !!!
You could apply you wished to yourself before on others it would be nice for the quality of the discussion
I remind some of your recent claims ;
" (<--"garbage"=French germanic word) ".... hahahahaha, very well informed Leasnam!
I reminded me the time when you claimed that french adjectives went before the nouns, as a proof that french had a germanic syntax, while it was just the inverse!! hahaha !...
" Given the fact that the word shows the correct alteration in form of the PIE root in that the 'd' > 't' (red- > rat), and given the above passage, who wants to continue to contest? So Latin has 2 forms of the same PIE root, one with no change (i.e. "rodere") and one with? ("rattus")? Can you please explain why this is so, greg or guest guest? "
I won't lost my time on this point, which is insignificant, greg did it in another post.
You don't need to spend time dealing with such pointless controversy. You had better to interest yourself to the analysis you asked yourself: I remind you said:
"The only way to tell is to take a several samples of French, conversational or literary--whichever you choose to focus on--and analyse them."
Ok, I posted two samples of french a few pages ago... what are you expecting to give your analyse concerning the importance of words of germanic origins in french?? I'm waiting your conclusions of great linguist....
" By the way, guest guest, "prendre un rat" was an old French phrase as in "ce pistolet a pris un rat" = "the pistol misfired, missing fire", that gave rise to the verb 'rater'. I cannot believe that a foreigner has to explain this to you, a Frenchman/-woman. Please, learn something about your language before you come here and smugly lecture in baseless defense of it. "
You are pathetic. I'm sorry but I'm not a native old french speaker... And thank you but I'm also able to past-copy, I could do it in all english... And please I don't need this kind of comments from someone who don't understand french.
" Maybe this is where our disconnect lies. I actually expect you to already understnad these things without me having to spoon-feed them to you as an infant. I'm not a baby-sitter. I will have none of it. "
No comment. I thought you were funny tonight. I'm afraid you coming mad, Sorry.
" <<" "Observer : « "mépris" contains the germanic prefix "mé-, més-" (English mis-) »
Oui c'est bien connu : le préfixe français <mé#> n'a rien de roman. Itou pour <mesconéisser> en occitan. " "
Yes, and "menospreciar" (mépriser in Spanish), has nothing to see with menos (lat. minus/fr. més-)+ preciar... ;) >>
Again you display your lack of training, or perhaps your intentional attempt to frustrate. Let me teach you something: Forget the occurrences of this "assumed" prefix in other Romance languages. We are talking about French 'mé-, més-' from Olf French 'mes-, mis- [in Carolingian documents]' only (start with the source and work towards the present). "
Same than above. why don't you come the analysis of the whole text... not just discussing endlessly over 2 words...
And if you consider, like "observer", that there are not enough, you have the right to make the same exercice I did with this two samples with a whole book of Emile Zola if you want... since it seems you have time to loose... You'll give me the results of your research, I'm sure they would be intereting.
" <<Observer : « You do say garbe in French [...] ».
Inconnu au bataillon, désolé. >>
This word was listed in guest guest's list above:
"* derivatives of "blé, vois, fange, ***garbe***, haie,"
The objective of this list was precisely made to make you concious that a lot of there words are actually not used...
And that true "garbe" is for us "inconnu au bataillon", but is part of the 400 "attested" words with germanic root...
If you want more information of the subject this a the list of these words. Those with (?) are contested among linguits
French words of original germanic origins : about 400 words:
If we group them in three groups: 1. Not used, very rarely known / 2. Rarely used / 3. Current french
1. Not used, and not understood by today french speakers (I personally never have heard them): about 120 words:
alise, alleu, arroi, baboue, bau, bedeau, béton (lait), bief, bière (caisse), bondon, bongeau, bot, brachet, brai (piège), braise, brand, brandon, brème, buire, buron, chambellan, chaton (de bague), chétron, ciron, clenche, coche (bateau), cote (cabane), crafe, cramail (?), crape, drageon, écale, échauguette, échevin, échiffre, écofier, écot, élingue, empan, épeiche, éperlan, époule, espringale, estrif, éteuf, étoc, faude, feurre, fouarre, frette, freux, gaude, gaule (?), gerfaut, glouteron, gonfalon, gruau, gruyer, guède, guerdon, guiche, guimpe, haire, hait, hallier, hampe, hanap, haubert, haussière, haveron, havet, hétoudeau, hourd, houseau, laîche, lippe, litre (fem), losse (?), marc (poids), martre, mégis (?), rochet, taquet, targe, tassette, tette, touaille, troène, varenne, baud, blet, dehait, échif, galand, lige, madré, sur (acide), bâtir (coudre), baudir, brouir, éclisser, émeutir (fienter), étricher, étriver, fauder, flatir, fourbir, gauchir, grigner, grommeler, guiper, mâchurer, marrir, oudrir (?), rouir, sérancer, super, bélitre, flasque (madrie), foudre(tonneau), halecret, lansquenet.
2. Words that are actually used in specific speech (words that we generally know but that are not part of current vocabulary); about 60 words
affre, aigrette, aune, ban, baudrier, beffroi, brelan, bride, brouée, brouet, bru, cane (?), charivari (?), chopine, clapier, cotte (vêtement), crampon, échanson, échine, échoppe (boutique), épar, éperon, épieu, esclame, faîte, fanon, fourreau, frimas, garenne, grès, guise, harde (troupe), hâte, havre, heaume, héraut (?), héron, houe, huche, hulotte (?), if (?), lisse (palissade), marche (frontière), marsouin, maton, mésange (?), mitaine, mite, morille,
mulot, sénéchal, tourbe (charbon), trumeau (?), adouber, bramer, buer, aurochs, élan (cerf),
3. Words of current french vocabulary, that an average native speaker should know (about 225 words)
agace, anche, babine, balafre, balle, banc, bande (d'étoffe), bannière, bar, beignet, bille (boule), bloc, bois (?), borde, botte, (assemblage d'objets), bouc, bourg, brèche, brique, brosse, bûche (?), butin, caille, canif, carcan, chamois, chouette, clapet, coiffe, crabe (crustacé), crapaud (?), crèche, cresson, croupe, cruche, dard, duvet (?), écaille, écharpe,échasse, échelle (escadron), écran, écrevisse, écume, émail, émoi, épervier, esturgeon, étal, étalon, étau, étoffe, étrier, falaise, fauteuil, feutre, fief, flan, flot, frais, gage, gant, garou (loup-), gâteau (?), gaufre, gazon, gêne, gerbe, gifle (?), giron, grappe, griffe, groseille, guerre, guet, hache, haie, halle, hameau, hanche, hanneton, hareng, harpe, héberge, honte, hotte, housse, houx, jardin, latte, leurre, loge, loquet, lot, malle, marais, mare, maréchal, mât, meurtre, mitraille, moufle (gant), mousse, nord, orgueil, ouest, parc (?), patte (?), poche (?), quille (à jouer), rang, rat (?), regain, roseau, salle, sud, tache, taisson, tanière, tas (?), taudis (?), tique, tonne, touffe, toupet, toupie (?), trappe, trêve, trompe, troupe (?), tuyau, blafard, blanc, bleu, brun, esclame, fauve, fluet, frais, franc, gaillard (?), gris, laid, morne, riche, sale, avachir, bannir, bouter, broder (?), brouter, broyer, choisir, chopper (?), choquer (?), clapper, cracher, danser, déchirer, déguerpir, dérober, éblouir, éclater (?), effrayer, enhardir, épanouir, épargner, épeler, epier, estamper, farder (?), flatter, fournir, fourrer, gâcher, gagner, galoper (?), garder, garnir, glapir, glisser, gratter, graver, grimper, grincer, gripper, guérir, guider, haïr, haler, happer, hâter, heurter, honnir, lamper, laper, lécher, marquer, nantir, navrer, radoter, ramper, râper, regretter, rider, river, rôtir, saisir, souper, taper (frapper), taper (boucher), tapir (?), tarir, tirer, tomber, toucher, trébucher, trépigner, tricher (?), guère, trop (?), .blocus, boulevard, cric, dalle,
To those we can add the french words of more recent germanic origins, from 15th century, about 105 words:
1. Not used, and not understood by today french speakers (I personally never have heard them): about 55 words:
bondrée, brinde, bismuth, canapsa, carrousse, castine, éclanche, gulpe, hase, reître, rosse, trôler, crancelin, cromorne, dréger, étraque, havresac, vaguemestre, velte, banse, bérubleau, blende, bocambre, bocard, cran (raifort), drille (trépan), embérize, estrigue, feldspath, flinquer, gland (tenaille), gneiss, halde, heiduque, kirsch-wasser, lagre, losse, prame, quartier-mestre, sabretache, spalt, spath, velche, vermout, vidrecome; bichof, coprose, cuffat,
dolman, druse, guelte, schabraque, schlague, schlich
(Probably you cou teach me a lot about what those french words mean, because of your good knowledge of old french, and your native germanic language, I'm waiting)
2. Words that are actually used in specific speech (words that we generally know but that are not part of current vocabulary); about 14 words
arquebuse, coche (voiture), fifre, huguenot, potasse, hulot (hublot), traban, glaçure, loustic, vasistas, bock, mastoc, thalweg, tungstène
3. Words of current french vocabulary, that an average native speaker should know (about 35 words)
bière (boisson), bique (fam.), blottir, bogue (de châtaigne), burin, cale, clapet, espiègle, gueuse, halte, hutte, trinquer, bivouac, blinder, calèche, chenapan,
cible, estomper, gangue, gibelot, obus, sabre, valse, zigzag, zinc, cobalt, hamster, nouille, vampire, blague, blockhaus, bogue (anneau), chope, choucroute, gamin, képi
Well, to sum up and have a more precise idea of the importance of this vocabulary with germanic origins we could add the totals
- 260 french words of germanic origins are used and known by most of the native french speakers, in various frequencies.
- 74 french words of germanic origins are still used, but in much rescticted cases
- 175 words are completly unknown to most of the modern native french speakers.
when we think that english, has not enought of hundreds of thousands of attested latinates words to be considered a latin-germanic mixed language... french with about 400 words of "attested" germanic origins is quite far, no?
<<Anyway, even in a world where those exemples were with germanic origin>>
They are :) "
hehehehehe !!! I didn't know you were a funny man (or woman i don't know!)
if "bien", "heur", "venue", "mal", "au", "jour", "de"; "hui" are germanic words, then I agree with you french is germanic language !! :) !! very funny Leasman!
" Please, do some research before spouting off. guest guest, you too. "
hahahahah !!!! you definitly VERY funny tonight !!!
You could apply you wished to yourself before on others it would be nice for the quality of the discussion
I remind some of your recent claims ;
" (<--"garbage"=French germanic word) ".... hahahahaha, very well informed Leasnam!
I reminded me the time when you claimed that french adjectives went before the nouns, as a proof that french had a germanic syntax, while it was just the inverse!! hahaha !...
" Given the fact that the word shows the correct alteration in form of the PIE root in that the 'd' > 't' (red- > rat), and given the above passage, who wants to continue to contest? So Latin has 2 forms of the same PIE root, one with no change (i.e. "rodere") and one with? ("rattus")? Can you please explain why this is so, greg or guest guest? "
I won't lost my time on this point, which is insignificant, greg did it in another post.
You don't need to spend time dealing with such pointless controversy. You had better to interest yourself to the analysis you asked yourself: I remind you said:
"The only way to tell is to take a several samples of French, conversational or literary--whichever you choose to focus on--and analyse them."
Ok, I posted two samples of french a few pages ago... what are you expecting to give your analyse concerning the importance of words of germanic origins in french?? I'm waiting your conclusions of great linguist....
" By the way, guest guest, "prendre un rat" was an old French phrase as in "ce pistolet a pris un rat" = "the pistol misfired, missing fire", that gave rise to the verb 'rater'. I cannot believe that a foreigner has to explain this to you, a Frenchman/-woman. Please, learn something about your language before you come here and smugly lecture in baseless defense of it. "
You are pathetic. I'm sorry but I'm not a native old french speaker... And thank you but I'm also able to past-copy, I could do it in all english... And please I don't need this kind of comments from someone who don't understand french.
" Maybe this is where our disconnect lies. I actually expect you to already understnad these things without me having to spoon-feed them to you as an infant. I'm not a baby-sitter. I will have none of it. "
No comment. I thought you were funny tonight. I'm afraid you coming mad, Sorry.
" <<" "Observer : « "mépris" contains the germanic prefix "mé-, més-" (English mis-) »
Oui c'est bien connu : le préfixe français <mé#> n'a rien de roman. Itou pour <mesconéisser> en occitan. " "
Yes, and "menospreciar" (mépriser in Spanish), has nothing to see with menos (lat. minus/fr. més-)+ preciar... ;) >>
Again you display your lack of training, or perhaps your intentional attempt to frustrate. Let me teach you something: Forget the occurrences of this "assumed" prefix in other Romance languages. We are talking about French 'mé-, més-' from Olf French 'mes-, mis- [in Carolingian documents]' only (start with the source and work towards the present). "
Same than above. why don't you come the analysis of the whole text... not just discussing endlessly over 2 words...
And if you consider, like "observer", that there are not enough, you have the right to make the same exercice I did with this two samples with a whole book of Emile Zola if you want... since it seems you have time to loose... You'll give me the results of your research, I'm sure they would be intereting.
" <<Observer : « You do say garbe in French [...] ».
Inconnu au bataillon, désolé. >>
This word was listed in guest guest's list above:
"* derivatives of "blé, vois, fange, ***garbe***, haie,"
The objective of this list was precisely made to make you concious that a lot of there words are actually not used...
And that true "garbe" is for us "inconnu au bataillon", but is part of the 400 "attested" words with germanic root...
If you want more information of the subject this a the list of these words. Those with (?) are contested among linguits
French words of original germanic origins : about 400 words:
If we group them in three groups: 1. Not used, very rarely known / 2. Rarely used / 3. Current french
1. Not used, and not understood by today french speakers (I personally never have heard them): about 120 words:
alise, alleu, arroi, baboue, bau, bedeau, béton (lait), bief, bière (caisse), bondon, bongeau, bot, brachet, brai (piège), braise, brand, brandon, brème, buire, buron, chambellan, chaton (de bague), chétron, ciron, clenche, coche (bateau), cote (cabane), crafe, cramail (?), crape, drageon, écale, échauguette, échevin, échiffre, écofier, écot, élingue, empan, épeiche, éperlan, époule, espringale, estrif, éteuf, étoc, faude, feurre, fouarre, frette, freux, gaude, gaule (?), gerfaut, glouteron, gonfalon, gruau, gruyer, guède, guerdon, guiche, guimpe, haire, hait, hallier, hampe, hanap, haubert, haussière, haveron, havet, hétoudeau, hourd, houseau, laîche, lippe, litre (fem), losse (?), marc (poids), martre, mégis (?), rochet, taquet, targe, tassette, tette, touaille, troène, varenne, baud, blet, dehait, échif, galand, lige, madré, sur (acide), bâtir (coudre), baudir, brouir, éclisser, émeutir (fienter), étricher, étriver, fauder, flatir, fourbir, gauchir, grigner, grommeler, guiper, mâchurer, marrir, oudrir (?), rouir, sérancer, super, bélitre, flasque (madrie), foudre(tonneau), halecret, lansquenet.
2. Words that are actually used in specific speech (words that we generally know but that are not part of current vocabulary); about 60 words
affre, aigrette, aune, ban, baudrier, beffroi, brelan, bride, brouée, brouet, bru, cane (?), charivari (?), chopine, clapier, cotte (vêtement), crampon, échanson, échine, échoppe (boutique), épar, éperon, épieu, esclame, faîte, fanon, fourreau, frimas, garenne, grès, guise, harde (troupe), hâte, havre, heaume, héraut (?), héron, houe, huche, hulotte (?), if (?), lisse (palissade), marche (frontière), marsouin, maton, mésange (?), mitaine, mite, morille,
mulot, sénéchal, tourbe (charbon), trumeau (?), adouber, bramer, buer, aurochs, élan (cerf),
3. Words of current french vocabulary, that an average native speaker should know (about 225 words)
agace, anche, babine, balafre, balle, banc, bande (d'étoffe), bannière, bar, beignet, bille (boule), bloc, bois (?), borde, botte, (assemblage d'objets), bouc, bourg, brèche, brique, brosse, bûche (?), butin, caille, canif, carcan, chamois, chouette, clapet, coiffe, crabe (crustacé), crapaud (?), crèche, cresson, croupe, cruche, dard, duvet (?), écaille, écharpe,échasse, échelle (escadron), écran, écrevisse, écume, émail, émoi, épervier, esturgeon, étal, étalon, étau, étoffe, étrier, falaise, fauteuil, feutre, fief, flan, flot, frais, gage, gant, garou (loup-), gâteau (?), gaufre, gazon, gêne, gerbe, gifle (?), giron, grappe, griffe, groseille, guerre, guet, hache, haie, halle, hameau, hanche, hanneton, hareng, harpe, héberge, honte, hotte, housse, houx, jardin, latte, leurre, loge, loquet, lot, malle, marais, mare, maréchal, mât, meurtre, mitraille, moufle (gant), mousse, nord, orgueil, ouest, parc (?), patte (?), poche (?), quille (à jouer), rang, rat (?), regain, roseau, salle, sud, tache, taisson, tanière, tas (?), taudis (?), tique, tonne, touffe, toupet, toupie (?), trappe, trêve, trompe, troupe (?), tuyau, blafard, blanc, bleu, brun, esclame, fauve, fluet, frais, franc, gaillard (?), gris, laid, morne, riche, sale, avachir, bannir, bouter, broder (?), brouter, broyer, choisir, chopper (?), choquer (?), clapper, cracher, danser, déchirer, déguerpir, dérober, éblouir, éclater (?), effrayer, enhardir, épanouir, épargner, épeler, epier, estamper, farder (?), flatter, fournir, fourrer, gâcher, gagner, galoper (?), garder, garnir, glapir, glisser, gratter, graver, grimper, grincer, gripper, guérir, guider, haïr, haler, happer, hâter, heurter, honnir, lamper, laper, lécher, marquer, nantir, navrer, radoter, ramper, râper, regretter, rider, river, rôtir, saisir, souper, taper (frapper), taper (boucher), tapir (?), tarir, tirer, tomber, toucher, trébucher, trépigner, tricher (?), guère, trop (?), .blocus, boulevard, cric, dalle,
To those we can add the french words of more recent germanic origins, from 15th century, about 105 words:
1. Not used, and not understood by today french speakers (I personally never have heard them): about 55 words:
bondrée, brinde, bismuth, canapsa, carrousse, castine, éclanche, gulpe, hase, reître, rosse, trôler, crancelin, cromorne, dréger, étraque, havresac, vaguemestre, velte, banse, bérubleau, blende, bocambre, bocard, cran (raifort), drille (trépan), embérize, estrigue, feldspath, flinquer, gland (tenaille), gneiss, halde, heiduque, kirsch-wasser, lagre, losse, prame, quartier-mestre, sabretache, spalt, spath, velche, vermout, vidrecome; bichof, coprose, cuffat,
dolman, druse, guelte, schabraque, schlague, schlich
(Probably you cou teach me a lot about what those french words mean, because of your good knowledge of old french, and your native germanic language, I'm waiting)
2. Words that are actually used in specific speech (words that we generally know but that are not part of current vocabulary); about 14 words
arquebuse, coche (voiture), fifre, huguenot, potasse, hulot (hublot), traban, glaçure, loustic, vasistas, bock, mastoc, thalweg, tungstène
3. Words of current french vocabulary, that an average native speaker should know (about 35 words)
bière (boisson), bique (fam.), blottir, bogue (de châtaigne), burin, cale, clapet, espiègle, gueuse, halte, hutte, trinquer, bivouac, blinder, calèche, chenapan,
cible, estomper, gangue, gibelot, obus, sabre, valse, zigzag, zinc, cobalt, hamster, nouille, vampire, blague, blockhaus, bogue (anneau), chope, choucroute, gamin, képi
Well, to sum up and have a more precise idea of the importance of this vocabulary with germanic origins we could add the totals
- 260 french words of germanic origins are used and known by most of the native french speakers, in various frequencies.
- 74 french words of germanic origins are still used, but in much rescticted cases
- 175 words are completly unknown to most of the modern native french speakers.
when we think that english, has not enought of hundreds of thousands of attested latinates words to be considered a latin-germanic mixed language... french with about 400 words of "attested" germanic origins is quite far, no?