This conversation is absurd. I've not read a single book about Romance languages that states they derive from an hybrid between Classical Latin and Germanic languages, so I refuse to keep on arguing with ignorants. I tried to make you think about the absurdity of such idea, but you seem to lack any sense of logic and knowledge about languages. Bye.
What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language
<<This conversation is absurd. I've not read a single book about Romance languages that states they derive from an hybrid between Classical Latin and Germanic languages, so I refuse to keep on arguing with ignorants. I tried to make you think about the absurdity of such idea, but you seem to lack any sense of logic and knowledge about languages. Bye. >>
Bye!
Btw, don't forget to keep your eyes open for my book "The Hidden Truth About Romance Languages: The Untold Story"
Bye!
Btw, don't forget to keep your eyes open for my book "The Hidden Truth About Romance Languages: The Untold Story"
I wrote another book " The not hidden reality: Germanic languages like English are a cheap and barbarian copy of Romance languages". Don't forget to read it.
<<Don't forget to read it. >>
Ahhh--How did u know I forgot!
Oh, It was a piece of crap that's why
Ahhh--How did u know I forgot!
Oh, It was a piece of crap that's why
" bleu, brun, gris, riche, chic, choquer, maquiller, farder, choisir, début, boulevarde, regarder, guerre (yes, it's germanic!), chiffon, gourmet, gourmand, bière, garage, déborder, rémarque, marais, flotter, flatter, blouse, robe, toupee, tampon, bouton... "
Some comments:
1. Firstly:
I meant in a real text (so we could see the real percentage of these words in an average text; to see how much "noticeable is it). Giving a list of 25 words out of context has no much meaning (list in which about 8-10 of them are not germanic, or probably without any germanic root).
2. Secondly: some mistakes:
boulevarde would be "boulevard" I think you meant?
But yes, if it is; "boulevard" was a relatively recent neologism coming from Dutch I think in late 19th century. (a bit the same way Paquebot is a deformation from English packet-boat)
"Chic" is more or less a familiar word for the more correct "élégant".
"Chiffon" is supposed to derive from a latin origin, not a germanic one.
"gourmand" it seem not being related to "gourmet, but more to a celtic origin.
"déborder" comes from "bord", which itself is related to italian and Spanish "bordo". The origin of "bordo" might be either older celtic, germanic or even indo-European origin since similar word existed in celtic and other indo-European languages.
"toupee", I have no idea of what it means.
"remarque", derives from "marque", which itself is related to SP;PT and Provençal "marca". The origin of marca is probably not (or at least not only) derived from German "mark" because the similar latin word "margo" already existed, and other similar word in other indo-European language, including celtic ones.
"Flotter" is of latin origin, coming from "fluctuat", related to Italian "fiotare" or Spanish "flotar", etc.
"Blouse" the exact etymology is unknown. It might derive from latin name "pelusium"; as well as from "bleu" or from "bousse". If it derive from a germanic origin it is unsude and very undirect, passing thru old french "blaude" and "bliaut" or from the color "bleu".
"robe": it derive from verb "rober", which itself is coming from bas-latin and is found in Spanish and Italian (and others): rubare, robar. The old root of this word is of older conection with germanic "rauben" and probably other indo-European roots.
3. Finally: The last but not the least: a lot of these few words are not specific to french, but, once again are present in other romance languages (some exemples only, they also probably exist in Portuguese, Romanian, Catalan or Others):
Bleu: Blu (italian),
Gris: Gris(Spanish), Grigio(Italian),
Guerre: guerra(Spanish/Italian/Portuguese,...),
Choquer: Chocar(Spanish),
maquillage: maquillaje(Spanish), maquiagem(Portuguese),
regarder: guardare(Italian),
Bière: birra(Italian),
Garage: garaje(Spanish), garagem(Portuguese)
Déborder: debordar(se) (Spanish)
Remarquer: remarcar(Spanish), rimarcare(Italian), etc.
Marais: Marisma(Spanish)
Robe: Ropa (not exact same signification but same root)
tampon: Tampon(Spanish); Tampone(Italian), Tampao(Portuguese)
Bouton: boton(Spanish/Provencal), Boto(Catalan), Botao (Portuguese), bottone(Italian) ...
Well, even when the etymological root might be found in a old germanic word, the similarities between the different versions in the different romance languages still generally much closer together (in orthography and in signification) than with any germanic language.
Some comments:
1. Firstly:
I meant in a real text (so we could see the real percentage of these words in an average text; to see how much "noticeable is it). Giving a list of 25 words out of context has no much meaning (list in which about 8-10 of them are not germanic, or probably without any germanic root).
2. Secondly: some mistakes:
boulevarde would be "boulevard" I think you meant?
But yes, if it is; "boulevard" was a relatively recent neologism coming from Dutch I think in late 19th century. (a bit the same way Paquebot is a deformation from English packet-boat)
"Chic" is more or less a familiar word for the more correct "élégant".
"Chiffon" is supposed to derive from a latin origin, not a germanic one.
"gourmand" it seem not being related to "gourmet, but more to a celtic origin.
"déborder" comes from "bord", which itself is related to italian and Spanish "bordo". The origin of "bordo" might be either older celtic, germanic or even indo-European origin since similar word existed in celtic and other indo-European languages.
"toupee", I have no idea of what it means.
"remarque", derives from "marque", which itself is related to SP;PT and Provençal "marca". The origin of marca is probably not (or at least not only) derived from German "mark" because the similar latin word "margo" already existed, and other similar word in other indo-European language, including celtic ones.
"Flotter" is of latin origin, coming from "fluctuat", related to Italian "fiotare" or Spanish "flotar", etc.
"Blouse" the exact etymology is unknown. It might derive from latin name "pelusium"; as well as from "bleu" or from "bousse". If it derive from a germanic origin it is unsude and very undirect, passing thru old french "blaude" and "bliaut" or from the color "bleu".
"robe": it derive from verb "rober", which itself is coming from bas-latin and is found in Spanish and Italian (and others): rubare, robar. The old root of this word is of older conection with germanic "rauben" and probably other indo-European roots.
3. Finally: The last but not the least: a lot of these few words are not specific to french, but, once again are present in other romance languages (some exemples only, they also probably exist in Portuguese, Romanian, Catalan or Others):
Bleu: Blu (italian),
Gris: Gris(Spanish), Grigio(Italian),
Guerre: guerra(Spanish/Italian/Portuguese,...),
Choquer: Chocar(Spanish),
maquillage: maquillaje(Spanish), maquiagem(Portuguese),
regarder: guardare(Italian),
Bière: birra(Italian),
Garage: garaje(Spanish), garagem(Portuguese)
Déborder: debordar(se) (Spanish)
Remarquer: remarcar(Spanish), rimarcare(Italian), etc.
Marais: Marisma(Spanish)
Robe: Ropa (not exact same signification but same root)
tampon: Tampon(Spanish); Tampone(Italian), Tampao(Portuguese)
Bouton: boton(Spanish/Provencal), Boto(Catalan), Botao (Portuguese), bottone(Italian) ...
Well, even when the etymological root might be found in a old germanic word, the similarities between the different versions in the different romance languages still generally much closer together (in orthography and in signification) than with any germanic language.
a more original name Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:01 pm GMT
"It's those Germanic speakers that were in contact with the Latin Empire and adopted Latin words (both Classical and Vulgar) to call new concepts and things that didn't exist in their culture. "
____________
Centuries before the migration period, Germanic speakers already massively immigrated nolens volens into the decadent Roman empire as federate, slave and soldiers and adopted Latin words as well as they could - the crude version of Latin that was the result of this Germanic-Latin language contact was what is called today "Vulgar Latin". Vulgar Latin was some kind of "Latin for barbars, slaves and soldiers" and became later Romance after further language contact in the migration period.
"It's those Germanic speakers that were in contact with the Latin Empire and adopted Latin words (both Classical and Vulgar) to call new concepts and things that didn't exist in their culture. "
____________
Centuries before the migration period, Germanic speakers already massively immigrated nolens volens into the decadent Roman empire as federate, slave and soldiers and adopted Latin words as well as they could - the crude version of Latin that was the result of this Germanic-Latin language contact was what is called today "Vulgar Latin". Vulgar Latin was some kind of "Latin for barbars, slaves and soldiers" and became later Romance after further language contact in the migration period.
"chiffon" - French, rag, chiffon, from chiffe, old rag, perhaps variant of Old French chipe, of Germanic origin cf English "chip"
"gourmand/goumet" - French, from Old French, alteration (influenced by gourmand, glutton) of groumet, servant, valet in charge of wines, from Middle English grom, boy, valet, cf English "groom"
"bord" is clearly Germanic (OE bord board, table, shield; c. D boord board, bord plate, G Bort, ON borth, Goth -baurd)
as is -marque (and marcher) from Gmc.
"Flotter" - F flotte < OE flota, ON floti. Latin fluctuare meant to flow, not float. A river *fluctuat* ("flows"); a BOAT *flotath* (< OE flotian - to float)
"Blouse" - F blousse, wool scraps, of Germanic origin; or from the phrase vêtement de laine blouse garment of short (i.e., uncarded, pure) wool; cf. Pr (lano) blouso pure (wool) < OHG blōz naked, c. OE bleat poor, miserable
"gourmand/goumet" - French, from Old French, alteration (influenced by gourmand, glutton) of groumet, servant, valet in charge of wines, from Middle English grom, boy, valet, cf English "groom"
"bord" is clearly Germanic (OE bord board, table, shield; c. D boord board, bord plate, G Bort, ON borth, Goth -baurd)
as is -marque (and marcher) from Gmc.
"Flotter" - F flotte < OE flota, ON floti. Latin fluctuare meant to flow, not float. A river *fluctuat* ("flows"); a BOAT *flotath* (< OE flotian - to float)
"Blouse" - F blousse, wool scraps, of Germanic origin; or from the phrase vêtement de laine blouse garment of short (i.e., uncarded, pure) wool; cf. Pr (lano) blouso pure (wool) < OHG blōz naked, c. OE bleat poor, miserable
Yeah, French has Germanic words. And? It has also Arabic words. But French has not Germanic syntax in it. Syntax does not change.
<<But French has not Germanic syntax in it. Syntax does not change. >>
au contraire mon ami, c'est où vous vous trompez...Le français a la syntaxe germanique et l'usage d'idiome aussi
Par exemple: Quand un Français dit que "On n'aime pas de tomates dans sa soupe" il utilise l'idiome germanique avec "on" (OF "hom") dans la même manière qu'un Allemand ou un Néerlandais disent "man"
comprenez ?
au contraire mon ami, c'est où vous vous trompez...Le français a la syntaxe germanique et l'usage d'idiome aussi
Par exemple: Quand un Français dit que "On n'aime pas de tomates dans sa soupe" il utilise l'idiome germanique avec "on" (OF "hom") dans la même manière qu'un Allemand ou un Néerlandais disent "man"
comprenez ?
The question is not that some french words have germanic etymology, but that the other romance languages also have them most of the time.
And that, even when those words might have some germanic etymology, they have been integrated into romance languages since so long time that they become Romance: ex; If I say "guerra", and think about similar words in other languages i would never associate with German or English "war" but with "guerre"...
French has many words of different origins, even if about 80/90% is latin there are also words of Arabic etymological origins:
Algèbre, alcool, Abricot, Alambic, Alchimie, Alcove, Alcalin, Algorithme, Almanach, Arcane, Arsenal, Aubergine, Azimuth, Zénith, Azur, Babouche, Baldaquin, Barbacane, Barda, Bédouin, Benzène, Bergamote, Bougie, Bled, Cabas, Cafard, Caid, Calife, Camelote, Carafe, Caramel, Chiffre, Chimie, Alchimie, Civette, cramoisi, cumin, couscous, échec, épinard, Elixir, Eponge, Estragon, fanfaron, Gazelle, Gerboise, gingembre, Girafe, goudron, guitare, Jaquette, Jarre, Jelaba, Jupe, laque, lilas, luth, macramé, matelas, minaret, mousseline, niquer, nuque, orange, quintal, rame, raquette, safari, safran, satin, sirop, sorbet, taboulé, tabouret, tare, timbale, zéro; et...
Some other exemples:
-indian; Jungle, pyjama, Atoll, catamaran, Avatar, Véranda, pagode, etc.
-Amerindian: Maïs, avocat, cacao, caoutchouc, Haricot, Manioc, Cajou, coca, Palétuvier, tomate, tabac, Pécan, boucan, canoe, Hamac, tobogan, savane, ouragan, etc.
etc.
And that, even when those words might have some germanic etymology, they have been integrated into romance languages since so long time that they become Romance: ex; If I say "guerra", and think about similar words in other languages i would never associate with German or English "war" but with "guerre"...
French has many words of different origins, even if about 80/90% is latin there are also words of Arabic etymological origins:
Algèbre, alcool, Abricot, Alambic, Alchimie, Alcove, Alcalin, Algorithme, Almanach, Arcane, Arsenal, Aubergine, Azimuth, Zénith, Azur, Babouche, Baldaquin, Barbacane, Barda, Bédouin, Benzène, Bergamote, Bougie, Bled, Cabas, Cafard, Caid, Calife, Camelote, Carafe, Caramel, Chiffre, Chimie, Alchimie, Civette, cramoisi, cumin, couscous, échec, épinard, Elixir, Eponge, Estragon, fanfaron, Gazelle, Gerboise, gingembre, Girafe, goudron, guitare, Jaquette, Jarre, Jelaba, Jupe, laque, lilas, luth, macramé, matelas, minaret, mousseline, niquer, nuque, orange, quintal, rame, raquette, safari, safran, satin, sirop, sorbet, taboulé, tabouret, tare, timbale, zéro; et...
Some other exemples:
-indian; Jungle, pyjama, Atoll, catamaran, Avatar, Véranda, pagode, etc.
-Amerindian: Maïs, avocat, cacao, caoutchouc, Haricot, Manioc, Cajou, coca, Palétuvier, tomate, tabac, Pécan, boucan, canoe, Hamac, tobogan, savane, ouragan, etc.
etc.
" Quand un Français dit que "On n'aime pas de tomates dans sa soupe"
héhéhé ! Aucun français ne dira jamais cà! Cette phrase n'a aucun sens.
On pourrait éventuellement dire:
"On n'aime pas les tomates dans sa soupe"
Mais celà n'est pas très clair... en tout cas au niveau du sens.
Un français dirait plutôt
"On n'aime pas les tomates dans notre soupe."
Mais dans ce cas "ON" a le sens de "NOUS", et non pas du pronom indéfini.
" il utilise l'idiome germanique avec "on" (OF "hom") dans la même manière qu'un Allemand ou un Néerlandais disent "man" "
Comme en Catalan aussi.
Oui, il existe un pronom indéfini "ON", en français. Et s'il y a une langue avec laquelle le comparer c'est le Catalan, qui n'est pas une langue germanique à ce que je sache...
Mais dans la très grande majorité des cas (surtout dans le language informel) "ON" est utilisé dans le sens de "NOUS", bien plus rarement dans le sens du pronom indéfini.
héhéhé ! Aucun français ne dira jamais cà! Cette phrase n'a aucun sens.
On pourrait éventuellement dire:
"On n'aime pas les tomates dans sa soupe"
Mais celà n'est pas très clair... en tout cas au niveau du sens.
Un français dirait plutôt
"On n'aime pas les tomates dans notre soupe."
Mais dans ce cas "ON" a le sens de "NOUS", et non pas du pronom indéfini.
" il utilise l'idiome germanique avec "on" (OF "hom") dans la même manière qu'un Allemand ou un Néerlandais disent "man" "
Comme en Catalan aussi.
Oui, il existe un pronom indéfini "ON", en français. Et s'il y a une langue avec laquelle le comparer c'est le Catalan, qui n'est pas une langue germanique à ce que je sache...
Mais dans la très grande majorité des cas (surtout dans le language informel) "ON" est utilisé dans le sens de "NOUS", bien plus rarement dans le sens du pronom indéfini.
"héhéhé ! Aucun français ne dira jamais cà! Cette phrase n'a aucun sens.
On pourrait éventuellement dire:
"On n'aime pas les tomates dans sa soupe"
Mais celà n'est pas très clair... en tout cas au niveau du sens.
"
I don't see how that makes any material difference with regards to what is being asserted
"Comme en Catalan aussi. "
^Nor this
Is "on" used in the way that germanic languages do?
On pourrait éventuellement dire:
"On n'aime pas les tomates dans sa soupe"
Mais celà n'est pas très clair... en tout cas au niveau du sens.
"
I don't see how that makes any material difference with regards to what is being asserted
"Comme en Catalan aussi. "
^Nor this
Is "on" used in the way that germanic languages do?
"material difference "
that should just be "difference" not "material difference"
that should just be "difference" not "material difference"