Oh, and how arrogant can YOU be to state something like that about Dutch people to a Dutch native?? You have no right to point at others.
Why do Dutch and Scandinavians speak English so well?
Dear Mork
I was thinking of you today. Both the Press & Journal and the Financial Times had a story about Shell on their front page. The Financial Times is an extremely important newspaper. The Press & Journal is the Aberdeen paper that serves the North East of Scotland.
Shell, is a complex company, part of which is called 'Royal Dutch Shell'. I read a book, either 'The Seven Sisters' or 'The Prize', which explained that Shell was originally founded by the Dutch in the East Indies and some London Jews.
Personally, I would like to say that generally I have always had a very high opinion of Dutch people. Recently, over the last few years, I have come across some Dutch people who have not been particularly friendly.
My sister in law who is Dutch, maintains that Dutch people are physically much taller and broader across the shoulders than other people. I believe that there have been scientific studies to prove this point. She compares her physique with English women who she describes as 'pear shaped'.
I will not express my views on the physical attributes of Scottish women from poorer areas. Other than to say, that Scottish people generally look quite ill. (Americans are often grossly overweight!)
Yours sincerely
R. M.
I was thinking of you today. Both the Press & Journal and the Financial Times had a story about Shell on their front page. The Financial Times is an extremely important newspaper. The Press & Journal is the Aberdeen paper that serves the North East of Scotland.
Shell, is a complex company, part of which is called 'Royal Dutch Shell'. I read a book, either 'The Seven Sisters' or 'The Prize', which explained that Shell was originally founded by the Dutch in the East Indies and some London Jews.
Personally, I would like to say that generally I have always had a very high opinion of Dutch people. Recently, over the last few years, I have come across some Dutch people who have not been particularly friendly.
My sister in law who is Dutch, maintains that Dutch people are physically much taller and broader across the shoulders than other people. I believe that there have been scientific studies to prove this point. She compares her physique with English women who she describes as 'pear shaped'.
I will not express my views on the physical attributes of Scottish women from poorer areas. Other than to say, that Scottish people generally look quite ill. (Americans are often grossly overweight!)
Yours sincerely
R. M.
“What I'm talking about is the overrated opinion the Dutch have of their English: they think they speak it better than native speakers do.”
That's ridiculous. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you emit utter nonsense like that?
“BTW we say …”
Who's “we”? You are talking as if you were a native speaker of English. Maybe you are, but you just don't give that impression.
“How arrogant to imply that you could.”
It is usually relatively easy to distinguish between American and British accent. Perhaps it's difficult for you, but most people with at least intermediate knowledge of English can do it pretty easily.
That's ridiculous. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you emit utter nonsense like that?
“BTW we say …”
Who's “we”? You are talking as if you were a native speaker of English. Maybe you are, but you just don't give that impression.
“How arrogant to imply that you could.”
It is usually relatively easy to distinguish between American and British accent. Perhaps it's difficult for you, but most people with at least intermediate knowledge of English can do it pretty easily.
>> They feel they speak it better than native speakers <<
What he meant by that was that native speakers tend to use slang and forms considered to be incorrect, whereas foreigners learn all of the prescribed rules od usage.
>> distinguishing between American and British English <<
Actually it's usually fairly difficult to tell whuch someone [non-native] learned. Since their English is usually influenced so much by their native phonology, they tend to seem like they are speaking British English if they use the [O:] vowel and don't pronounce their R's, and use [a]-[Q] in CAN'T, or they sound American if they do pronounce their R's, use [{]-[E] in CAN'T, and use only [a]-[Q] in CAUGHT.
What he meant by that was that native speakers tend to use slang and forms considered to be incorrect, whereas foreigners learn all of the prescribed rules od usage.
>> distinguishing between American and British English <<
Actually it's usually fairly difficult to tell whuch someone [non-native] learned. Since their English is usually influenced so much by their native phonology, they tend to seem like they are speaking British English if they use the [O:] vowel and don't pronounce their R's, and use [a]-[Q] in CAN'T, or they sound American if they do pronounce their R's, use [{]-[E] in CAN'T, and use only [a]-[Q] in CAUGHT.
When people in here say that Dutch people speak English with a noticeable Dutch accent I really have to agree - they very much do, as I've already said in my earlier post. Unless it's a Flemish speaking Belgian I don't think you can possibly think a person from the Netherlands speaking English as coming from anywhere else but there...it's so distinctive.
That lady I met in that store in Amsterdam who spoke English with a seemingly flawless Southern England type English English accent - I have often wondered whether she was having me on when she told me she had never even been to the UK?
Maybe she was but I can't possibly think why she would do that, but there you go. Maybe she expected me to take the conversation a wee bit further....she did seem to have a certain glint in her eyes while she was talking to me ;-) Maybe she really was English and married to a Dutchman or something....it didn't occur to me to look for a ring. btw don't they wear their wedding ring on their right hand on the Continent, not on the left as in Britain? I'm sure I read somewhere that they do.
I've never once even thought for a moment that Dutch people are "obsessed" with the UK...only an idiot would think they were, and even if some are I can't imagine why they would be. It's just that in Scotland, anyway, there does appear to be more Dutch registered cars, with the NL plates, on our roads up there - I seem to pass them quite frequently - more so than any others from our European countries. As for lorries and trucks and transporters etc - well, they seem to come from all over the EU - many from the former Eastern bloc.
Like many Brits I suppose the Dutch much prefer to head for the sunnier and warmer climes of Southern Europe. My sister and her husband have a tieshare property near Malaga, Southern Spain, and it's pure Andalucian heaven but hellish hot sometimes in July and August - 45C in the shade is common.
My main gripe with all the Continental HGV guys is the way they get away with not paying any UK road taxes at all!! At the same we native born drivers have to by law or else we are in the crapito - how iniquitous is that? Why our dreich British Government doesn't deal with this crazy situation is beyond me....all British drivers over on the Continent have to pay all the road taxes and tolls in all countries.
Even worse is the poor roadworthiness of some of their Continental vehicles, the bane of the lives of all UK Traffic Police officers, and even worse - a scary % of them are involved in accidents or mishaps on our roads, and over the past few weeks they have been involved in several fatal accidents simply because these foreign drivers were actually driving on the wrong side of the road. When confronted with the UK Police a surprising number of them profess to an inability to speak or even understand English.
Recently a Polish HGV driver killed himself and a British family of four when he drove onto the motorway on the right hand side lanes heading north and the family's southbound car smashed into him head on. How he managed to do that against all the roadsigns and whatever heaven only knows, but a fair number of these drivers claim an inability to speak any English so most probably they can't read English either although many road signs are indicated in internationally understood symbols anyway.
Close to where my grandparents live in Herefordshire a Portuguese registered HG vehicle pulled out of a layby and happiy drove along on the right hand side of the road - a local man in his car smashed into him full on on a bend and it was curtains for him and the Portuguese guy ended up in hospital with relatively minor injuries but later ended up at Her Majesty's Pleasure as the saying goes here.....it means in prison.
No foreign driver should be allowed on British (or Irish) roads until s/he is fully competent in the reading of the English Language, is forced to pay all UK/Irish road taxes and is fully insured - and, of course, keep to the forefront of his/her mind that the basic rule of the road here is:
"Keep Left" "Links Fahren" "Tenez a Gauche"...pretty vital in anyone's book.
That lady I met in that store in Amsterdam who spoke English with a seemingly flawless Southern England type English English accent - I have often wondered whether she was having me on when she told me she had never even been to the UK?
Maybe she was but I can't possibly think why she would do that, but there you go. Maybe she expected me to take the conversation a wee bit further....she did seem to have a certain glint in her eyes while she was talking to me ;-) Maybe she really was English and married to a Dutchman or something....it didn't occur to me to look for a ring. btw don't they wear their wedding ring on their right hand on the Continent, not on the left as in Britain? I'm sure I read somewhere that they do.
I've never once even thought for a moment that Dutch people are "obsessed" with the UK...only an idiot would think they were, and even if some are I can't imagine why they would be. It's just that in Scotland, anyway, there does appear to be more Dutch registered cars, with the NL plates, on our roads up there - I seem to pass them quite frequently - more so than any others from our European countries. As for lorries and trucks and transporters etc - well, they seem to come from all over the EU - many from the former Eastern bloc.
Like many Brits I suppose the Dutch much prefer to head for the sunnier and warmer climes of Southern Europe. My sister and her husband have a tieshare property near Malaga, Southern Spain, and it's pure Andalucian heaven but hellish hot sometimes in July and August - 45C in the shade is common.
My main gripe with all the Continental HGV guys is the way they get away with not paying any UK road taxes at all!! At the same we native born drivers have to by law or else we are in the crapito - how iniquitous is that? Why our dreich British Government doesn't deal with this crazy situation is beyond me....all British drivers over on the Continent have to pay all the road taxes and tolls in all countries.
Even worse is the poor roadworthiness of some of their Continental vehicles, the bane of the lives of all UK Traffic Police officers, and even worse - a scary % of them are involved in accidents or mishaps on our roads, and over the past few weeks they have been involved in several fatal accidents simply because these foreign drivers were actually driving on the wrong side of the road. When confronted with the UK Police a surprising number of them profess to an inability to speak or even understand English.
Recently a Polish HGV driver killed himself and a British family of four when he drove onto the motorway on the right hand side lanes heading north and the family's southbound car smashed into him head on. How he managed to do that against all the roadsigns and whatever heaven only knows, but a fair number of these drivers claim an inability to speak any English so most probably they can't read English either although many road signs are indicated in internationally understood symbols anyway.
Close to where my grandparents live in Herefordshire a Portuguese registered HG vehicle pulled out of a layby and happiy drove along on the right hand side of the road - a local man in his car smashed into him full on on a bend and it was curtains for him and the Portuguese guy ended up in hospital with relatively minor injuries but later ended up at Her Majesty's Pleasure as the saying goes here.....it means in prison.
No foreign driver should be allowed on British (or Irish) roads until s/he is fully competent in the reading of the English Language, is forced to pay all UK/Irish road taxes and is fully insured - and, of course, keep to the forefront of his/her mind that the basic rule of the road here is:
"Keep Left" "Links Fahren" "Tenez a Gauche"...pretty vital in anyone's book.
I've met several people from foreign countries that only recently moved here when they were over 20 that sounded absolutely native. However they spoke in an accent that was different from my own. For example most of them spoke what sounded like a British accent, but they turned out to be from the Netherlands or Scandinavia. I think it is because I can't tell a near-perfect British accent from a perfect British accent.
I would say that Mork writes at a much higher level than "intermediate".
In the first post, though, he used "teached" which gives the impression of a child learning the language naturally or a student. It probably caught the eye of many posters here.
I know very well what people mean when they write about Dutch people switching to English (although I have gotten the switch into German.)
There's a strong perception that one should use (if possible) the language in which one is addressed. Not to do this, seems very, very rude to English speakers. The exceptions allowed for switching are if the person seems incapable of using Dutch or asks, "Spreekt u Engels?"
Therefore...if the switch into English is made (even with good intentions), some people are likely to take offense if they have gone to the trouble of studying some Dutch. Hapless tourists may feel relief though.
It isn't just the Dutch. I have heard that French and German people also do this. Heck, people complain about this every year on Antimoon, I think.
Work on your accent if you get this response.
I think people who have gone to the trouble to learn some of the language want to practice. "Why did I bother to learn some Dutch when I could have taken up Tennis?"
In the first post, though, he used "teached" which gives the impression of a child learning the language naturally or a student. It probably caught the eye of many posters here.
I know very well what people mean when they write about Dutch people switching to English (although I have gotten the switch into German.)
There's a strong perception that one should use (if possible) the language in which one is addressed. Not to do this, seems very, very rude to English speakers. The exceptions allowed for switching are if the person seems incapable of using Dutch or asks, "Spreekt u Engels?"
Therefore...if the switch into English is made (even with good intentions), some people are likely to take offense if they have gone to the trouble of studying some Dutch. Hapless tourists may feel relief though.
It isn't just the Dutch. I have heard that French and German people also do this. Heck, people complain about this every year on Antimoon, I think.
Work on your accent if you get this response.
I think people who have gone to the trouble to learn some of the language want to practice. "Why did I bother to learn some Dutch when I could have taken up Tennis?"
One method you can do, is simply keep speaking the language even though they respond in English. Interesting story: I know someone who went to visit his relatives in Estonia, and he speaks Estonian natively. During the entire trip there he spoke exclusively Estonian, and his relatives replied to him in English. They were obviously desperate to practice their English.
<<I would say that Mork writes at a much higher level than "intermediate".
In the first post, though, he used "teached" which gives the impression of a child learning the language naturally or a student. It probably caught the eye of many posters here>>
Teached is a very basic error: Mork didn't know that "teach" is irregular and is "taught" in the past.
Children in the telegraphic stage (toddlers) make similar mistakes when acquiring structural patterns i.e. in this case regular verbs +ed to the stem to create the past participle.
Mork made far more mistakes than that though IMHO. I would estimate B1 level (pre)-Intermediate. By B2 more accuracy is normally expected: B2 is FCE level, which judging by the posts Mork has written, (s)he wouldn't pass.
In the first post, though, he used "teached" which gives the impression of a child learning the language naturally or a student. It probably caught the eye of many posters here>>
Teached is a very basic error: Mork didn't know that "teach" is irregular and is "taught" in the past.
Children in the telegraphic stage (toddlers) make similar mistakes when acquiring structural patterns i.e. in this case regular verbs +ed to the stem to create the past participle.
Mork made far more mistakes than that though IMHO. I would estimate B1 level (pre)-Intermediate. By B2 more accuracy is normally expected: B2 is FCE level, which judging by the posts Mork has written, (s)he wouldn't pass.
<<Recently a Polish HGV driver killed himself and a British family of four when he drove onto the motorway on the right hand side lanes heading north and the family's southbound car smashed into him head on. >>
Sounds like it's time for the EU to require all member countries to drive on the same side of the road. The fairest way to decide which side is probably a continent-wide referendum, or else a vote by the European Parliament.
Sounds like it's time for the EU to require all member countries to drive on the same side of the road. The fairest way to decide which side is probably a continent-wide referendum, or else a vote by the European Parliament.
I am often amazed at the high standards that seem to be expected of speakers of English as a Foreign Language by Language Teachers. In reality, most semi-illiterate native speakers seem to get by.
Unfortunately, Mork does not seem to be contributing to this conversation about Mork. Personally I found his level of English perfectly acceptable. I found any mistakes he made interesting, rather than objectionable. I suspect that most English people would find him easier to understand than a lot of Scottish people.
Damian made a comment about 'wedding rings' in the Netherlands. I believe that which hand you wear them on, depends on your religion, which must make for some interesting confusion.
Coming back to my original point. Some English teachers are interested in 'form' - correct spelling, grammar, etc. Other English teachers are interested in content or meaning.
I had an English teacher who had been teaching English in Korea, who simply did not seem to understand what I was saying. He seemed to have a problem at the simple level of comprehension. He could correct the 'form' of what I had written. Something that I regarded as trivial. But he seemed to be unable to grasp the meaning of what I was saying.
I appreciate that communication is 'two way'. That I too, have a responsibility to be clear in how I present what I say.
Shall I spell check?
Two fragments instead of sentences, and I had misspelt 'simply' - a typo.
Unfortunately, Mork does not seem to be contributing to this conversation about Mork. Personally I found his level of English perfectly acceptable. I found any mistakes he made interesting, rather than objectionable. I suspect that most English people would find him easier to understand than a lot of Scottish people.
Damian made a comment about 'wedding rings' in the Netherlands. I believe that which hand you wear them on, depends on your religion, which must make for some interesting confusion.
Coming back to my original point. Some English teachers are interested in 'form' - correct spelling, grammar, etc. Other English teachers are interested in content or meaning.
I had an English teacher who had been teaching English in Korea, who simply did not seem to understand what I was saying. He seemed to have a problem at the simple level of comprehension. He could correct the 'form' of what I had written. Something that I regarded as trivial. But he seemed to be unable to grasp the meaning of what I was saying.
I appreciate that communication is 'two way'. That I too, have a responsibility to be clear in how I present what I say.
Shall I spell check?
Two fragments instead of sentences, and I had misspelt 'simply' - a typo.
Robin Michael,
Communication for conversation, tourism, chatting on a forum/skype is one thing, passing an English exam e.g. Cambridge FCE, CPE etc is another. The exams require certain levels of knowledge and corresponding accuracy.
I'm all for descriptive, meaning-centred language, but when it comes down to it, in business, working in most professions or for studying at uni for example, accuracy IS important. The same holds true in one's native language.
I agree, Mork is being highly defensive and throwing emotional abuse back after a perceived insult (valid or not). This does suggest you shouldn't argue with the Dutch (lol!)
Communication for conversation, tourism, chatting on a forum/skype is one thing, passing an English exam e.g. Cambridge FCE, CPE etc is another. The exams require certain levels of knowledge and corresponding accuracy.
I'm all for descriptive, meaning-centred language, but when it comes down to it, in business, working in most professions or for studying at uni for example, accuracy IS important. The same holds true in one's native language.
I agree, Mork is being highly defensive and throwing emotional abuse back after a perceived insult (valid or not). This does suggest you shouldn't argue with the Dutch (lol!)
A few years ago, I spent some time in Budapest for a mixture of business and pleasure and I learnt a tiny little bit of Hungarian before I went. When I made the effort to use the few words that I knew, I received a warm response from everyone and some people even made the effort to teach me something new.
The situation in Holland couldn't be more different. Although I had mastered some simple conversational Dutch, any attempts to use it were instantly dismissed and a reply was given in English. I find that very strange because in many other countries people are absolutely delighted when you use the local language, even if it's just a few words. I understand that lots of people the world over are desperate to practise their English but surely that isn't a burning necessity for the Dutch?
I also remember a sort visit a Polish city and going into a Pizza Hut restaurant for a bit to eat. When the staff realised I was an English-speaker, they got a young lad to look after my table who was enthusiastic about improving his English. I also pumped him for a few words of Polish and he was more than happy to help.
Yes, English is a modern lingua franca but it's nice to use the local language wherever possible. But in the Netherlands you just don't get an invitation to join the club.
The situation in Holland couldn't be more different. Although I had mastered some simple conversational Dutch, any attempts to use it were instantly dismissed and a reply was given in English. I find that very strange because in many other countries people are absolutely delighted when you use the local language, even if it's just a few words. I understand that lots of people the world over are desperate to practise their English but surely that isn't a burning necessity for the Dutch?
I also remember a sort visit a Polish city and going into a Pizza Hut restaurant for a bit to eat. When the staff realised I was an English-speaker, they got a young lad to look after my table who was enthusiastic about improving his English. I also pumped him for a few words of Polish and he was more than happy to help.
Yes, English is a modern lingua franca but it's nice to use the local language wherever possible. But in the Netherlands you just don't get an invitation to join the club.
So who really cares anyway? It's a good thing they speak English, because it means you don't have to learn Dutch. Who the hell wants to speak Dutch in the first place! Learn a proper, useful language!
Hmmm, on a more serious note, that could be why, actually. The Dutch probably have difficulty understanding why the hell an ENGLISH speaker of all people would want to learn Dutch. It would just seem silly to most them, after all they're familiar with the idea of forced learning of 'useful' English which has been imposed on them since birth. Hence they probably have formed the same "everyone speaks English" attitude that most native English speakers have. By that I mean the way most native English speakers will act incredulous when they find out another native English speaker is learning a non-'useful' language.
Hmmm, on a more serious note, that could be why, actually. The Dutch probably have difficulty understanding why the hell an ENGLISH speaker of all people would want to learn Dutch. It would just seem silly to most them, after all they're familiar with the idea of forced learning of 'useful' English which has been imposed on them since birth. Hence they probably have formed the same "everyone speaks English" attitude that most native English speakers have. By that I mean the way most native English speakers will act incredulous when they find out another native English speaker is learning a non-'useful' language.