Why do Dutch and Scandinavians speak English so well?

who cares? Thu May 28, 2009 10:28 am GMT
So who really cares anyway? It's a good thing they speak English, because it means you don't have to learn Dutch. Who the hell wants to speak Dutch in the first place! Learn a proper, useful language!

Hmmm, on a more serious note, that could be why, actually. The Dutch probably have difficulty understanding why the hell an ENGLISH speaker of all people would want to learn Dutch. It would just seem silly to most them, after all they're familiar with the idea of forced learning of 'useful' English which has been imposed on them since birth. Hence they probably have formed the same "everyone speaks English" attitude that most native English speakers have. By that I mean the way most native English speakers will act incredulous when they find out another native English speaker is learning a non-'useful' language.

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Who cares? A lot of people care: visitors, business people, students, a large number of people who, when they travel somewhere like to show willing and learn a few words/phrases of the local language - sometimes a lot more, depending on the length of their stay.

As for incredulity when discovering another native English-speaker's learning a non-useful language, yes there may be an element of surprise (as there would be if a Dutch person started learning Albanian or whatever) but I doubt there'd be any criticism. If the person were a resident of a Dutch-speaking country, I don't think anyone would be surprised.

Your Dutch point of view is interesting, but rather selfish. Try to see it from the foreigner's (non-Dutch) side: you're visiting Holland and want to try to learn some of the language, to show willing, demonstrate an interest etc.. and it's dismissed immediately. How does that feel? Pretty bad, you'd feel put down and disrespected. The Dutch wouldn't like it if people were to dismiss all their efforts PLUS I might add, they're very quick to condemn all foreigners as "not willing to learn Dutch"

I agree with fraz: I've also been to Hungary and found the people very welcoming. In Holland, they simply are not. A little effort usually goes a long way, in France for example, if you try to speak French it's appreciated. In Holland they dismiss all your efforts and arrogantly ignore them and reply in English (without asking if you even speak English).

The Dutch living in Amste Wed May 27, 2009 5:32 pm GMT
“What I'm talking about is the overrated opinion the Dutch have of their English: they think they speak it better than native speakers do.”

<<That's ridiculous. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you emit utter nonsense like that?>>


You're demonstrating a very typically Dutch response: aggressive and unnecessarily rude. Calm down and stop throwing insults around just because you don't like what others are saying.





<<Who's “we”? You are talking as if you were a native speaker of English. Maybe you are, but you just don't give that impression.>>

Yes, I am indeed a native speaker of English.




<<It is usually relatively easy to distinguish between American and British accent. Perhaps it's difficult for you, but most people with at least intermediate knowledge of English can do it pretty easily. >>

It's easy for me to distinguish between native speakers of American English as opposed to British English, but that's not the issue here.

It's not that clear cut when the speaker is a non-native and their speech is "coloured" by their native language. The Dutch do often have an "American-like" twang to their English, but the most predominant feature is their Dutch accent, and they tend to know British words and spelling. A fellow Dutchman wouldn't notice the Dutch accent, and could therefore focus on detecting American/British features, but I still believe his judgement would be limited.

<<if you try to speak French it's appreciated. In Holland they dismiss all your efforts and arrogantly ignore them and reply in English (without asking if you even speak English). >>

I know a Hungarian chap who spends a lot of time in Holland and can speak Dutch to a respectable standard. But he is often answered in English as soon as he opens his mouth, and his level of ability in English is actually worse than his Dutch.

>>It's not that clear cut when the speaker is a non-native and their speech is "coloured" by their native language. The Dutch do often have an "American-like" twang to their English, but the most predominant feature is their Dutch accent, and they tend to know British words and spelling. A fellow Dutchman wouldn't notice the Dutch accent, and could therefore focus on detecting American/British features, but I still believe his judgement would be limited.<<

Probably the largest thing in this kind of perception is that Dutch is rhotic (unlike German, which is mostly non-rhotic), and hence a Dutch accent in English is likely to be rhotic by default, and thus are likely to perceived as "American" - regardless of whether the individual(s) in question formally learned General American or Received Pronunciation.

Dutch people rather speak English to none-Dutch people since (like I mentioned earlier) they usually want to avoid German, which is perfectly understandable.

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No, it's not understandable !! If you avoid to speak german because of NAZI, I find you particularly stupid and unfair.
German people are not responsible for the acts their ancestors did.

You, Dutch people, need to grow up!

In August 1999 a group party from our school in Edinburgh...I was 17 at the time - went by coach all the way from Scotland to a town in the north east of Romania before moving down to a place near Bucharest to witness the most amazing natural phenomenon I have ever experienced - a total eclipse of the sun. As our American friends would say it was "awesome".

Anyway, the real point of this post is, as required (but often overlooked not least of all by me!) a linguistic one. My schoolmate and I stayed with a young lad of 21 and his family in the most basic and quite deprived circumstances by our standards but the absolutely genuine friendliness and hospitality of the really lovely lad and his family - his Mum and Dad - his two younger brothers had been "mysteriously" spirited away to some relatives in order that we two young Scots lads could have their beds, which in my case was a sofa cum bed. The water supply to the block of flats was automatically cut off between 2300hrs and 0700hrs every day of the week and what passed for a bath was filled with all kinds of weird looking stuff and by the end of our stay I was utterly sick of horrid grey/black bread, cucumbers, tomatoes and watermelons, and on the first morning the father offered us a shot of vodka to go with our breakfast...we declined it.

Nevertheless they were the most wonderful of people and the young lad spoke excellent English, but his parents knew not a single word of our Language so he had to act as an interpretor. I was amazed at his prowess in both spoken and written English, and it did not take us long to discover that there really was a very pronounced generational divide in Romania when it comes to the English Language.

English had overtaken Russian and German as the most widely taught foreign Language in Romania, and the desire among the up and coming generation to learn English was very strong among many youngsters in their teens and twenties. This situation was the same with all other members of our party who had been billeted with other families in this town - the kids acting as interpretors between us and the older generations.

We were astonished to see how much this young lad knew about the UK, as was the case with his best mate in the town who was trai8ning to be a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the established religion of Romania, which, scenically, is the most beautiful of countries, including the "Count Dracula" region of Transsylvania and the Carpathian mountains which we negotiated in the coach in the most hair-raising way on all the windy, twisty rounds with sharp bends right on the edge of very steep precipices.

My mate and I were persuaded to part with some of our possessions by Michael (as he preferred to be called rather than his normal Romanian version of this name) so I gave him some of my audio equipment and various other items including my alarm clock after which I had to rely on my mobile for this purpose.

The road journey from Scotland to Romania was amazingly interesting (which included the ferry from Dover to Calais rather than the Chunnel) took just over two days including stops and overnight stay in Vienna both going and coming) and as it was a couple of years before the introduction of the € we had to trade in a series of currencies, although in both Hungary and Romania they were happy to accept £s, and the range of Languages was interesting, too.....French, German, Hungarian and Romanian in all the countries we passed through - France, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Hungary and Romania, but it was all worth it....the sky was totally cloudless for the eclipse which took place at 14:10hrs Eastern European local time , two hours ahead of the UK. Soon after the eclipse the sky clouded over and, as often happens after a total eclipse, a really weird sort of windstorm blew up which last about five or six minutes, after which the sky became clear again. During the semi darkness of the eclipse all the birds stopped singing, it got suddenly cooler, and we saw these strange crescent "moons" on the ground....awesome!

Romania has since joined the EU family, and with all the EU money pouring into it the country is much better off economically than it was before and the teaching of English there is high on the agenda. At the same time here in the UK we have a fair number of Romanian waiters - how cool is that! Next door to Romania - in Bulgaria - they use the Cyrillic alphabet - now that really would be a challenge, like modern day Greek.

Damian London E14 , yes, yes, everybody speak english so well, but you, do you speak a foreigh language as the same level ? or are you just a boring monolingual? You're always told stories about people who speak english like a native, this is great... for them. But are you able to fulfil the same thing (speak a foreigh language as the same level as a native) ?
just curious.

“Calm down and stop throwing insults around”

Insults? How amazingly thin-skinned you are? You were childishly bashing out some stereotypes, and I just pointed out that your so-called facts about the Dutch people were crap. And now, instead of apologizing for your stupid behavior, you pretend to be “insulted” and ask me to calm down.

“Yes, I am indeed a native speaker of English.”

Hmm, I didn't ask a yes-no question. But as a native speaker of English, you sure know better.

“It's not that clear cut when the speaker is a non-native and their speech is "coloured" by their native language.”

Of course not. Non-natives rarely have “British” or “American” accent; their accent has features of both accents plus the “color of their own language.” In fact, figuring out whether a non-native has more “American” or “British” like accent, is petty pointless.

“A fellow Dutchman wouldn't notice the Dutch accent …”

I don't understand. Do you think people can't hear their own accents? When I hear Dutch politician speaking English, I can detect the Dutch accent. When I hear my friends and other Dutch speaking English, I can detect the Dutch accent. When I hear myself speaking English, I can detect the Dutch accent.

What leads you into thinking that you know what the Dutch think of their own English? What makes you such an expert on the Dutch?

No, it's not understandable !! If you avoid to speak german because of NAZI, I find you particularly stupid and unfair.
German people are not responsible for the acts their ancestors did.

You, Dutch people, need to grow up!

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You are being silly. This has nothing to do with nazi's, even though some old people around here still haven't gotten over that. German people generally speak one language, and that is German, and they speak it everywhere. Now let me ask you a perfectly legit question; wouldn't YOU be at least SLIGHTLY offended if somebody came to your country, started speaking a different language and expects YOU to adjust to that? I live near the border of Germany in Enschede, and if somebody would get offended about that I would definately understand it.

<<You're demonstrating a very typically Dutch response: aggressive and unnecessarily rude. Calm down and stop throwing insults around just because you don't like what others are saying.>>

You are demonstrating a very stereotypical comment; narrowminded and unnecessarily off the mark.

Well honestly, its a bit hard to not get insulted by your retarded comments.

<<A fellow Dutchman wouldn't notice the Dutch accent.>>

Haha, this is starting to get more moronic with every post you make. Why would somebody NOT notice their own accent? I can distinguish a Dutch person speaking English really well, and I can hear my own accent as well when I speak English, so why is that so hard according to you? You also didn't reply to my posts yet, so I hope you will because I still have a lot unanswered.

Now let me ask you a perfectly legit question; wouldn't YOU be at least SLIGHTLY offended if somebody came to your country, started speaking a different language and expects YOU to adjust to that?

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Many Dutch do that in my country, I live in south France and I see many dutch people old and young, who come to live in France, buy lovely houses in small french villages, but they don't try to speak french. They only speak dutch and english to old french peoples who can't understand them. They open shops full of dutch produces only available in dutch language , they don't try to integrate etc... but the brits do that too; I find this very despicable.

<<You are being silly. This has nothing to do with nazi's, even though some old people around here still haven't gotten over that. German people generally speak one language, and that is German, and they speak it everywhere. Now let me ask you a perfectly legit question; wouldn't YOU be at least SLIGHTLY offended if somebody came to your country, started speaking a different language and expects YOU to adjust to that? I live near the border of Germany in Enschede, and if somebody would get offended about that I would definately understand it. >>


Ho ho ho! Double standards, eh! Why is German prohibited but English is a must? Don't you get annoyed when English people come to your country and speak English?


And that is EXACTLY what you Dutch people do to non-native English speakers visiting Holland. If I am a Russian who speaks Dutch better than English, your insisting on speaking English is the same.

Have you actually ever tried saying (in Dutch, 'cuz that's what you want to practice) "I'm sorry but I am from Russia, and do not speak much English. Could you repeat that in Dutch, please?" I'm sure the people that you meet won't be so unreasonable as to deny a request such as that.

<<Ho ho ho! Double standards, eh! Why is German prohibited but English is a must? Don't you get annoyed when English people come to your country and speak English?


And that is EXACTLY what you Dutch people do to non-native English speakers visiting Holland. If I am a Russian who speaks Dutch better than English, your insisting on speaking English is the same.>>

Let me first correct you by saying that Holland is NOT a country and I don't live anywhere near Holland. Second of all I never said that German is prohibited and why would it? Lastly, English is considered the main-language of the world with Spanish on the second place. Not to put German down or anything, but it is how it is. When you visit a country where you don't understand the language, how do you communicate then? In English, exactly.

In all honesty, I have never met any none-English speakers who could speak Dutch better then English. This is not to be 'arrogant', or 'stubborn' or anything, but this is my experience. Also, if somebody speaks shitty Dutch, I wouldn't want to talk in my native language to him/her either. Sorry.

<<Let me first correct you by saying that Holland is NOT a country and I don't live anywhere near Holland. Second of all I never said that German is prohibited and why would it? Lastly, English is considered the main-language of the world with Spanish on the second place. Not to put German down or anything, but it is how it is. When you visit a country where you don't understand the language, how do you communicate then? In English, exactly. >>


Except while English may be the main language of the Netherlands, the Netherlands are not the world. There are many countries, even in Europe where English is much much much less prominent than it is in the Netherlands. There are many people in Europe for whom German is more useful and important than English, and English is some distant ideal which is 'useful' in theory but not in practice. These people should be able to try to speak German, especially since Dutch and German are so closely related and understanding is easy.

Sure, then why not learn 50 languages in school and adjust to every tourist who visits your country... Makes perfect sense.

Dutch is closely related to both English and German so thats bullshit. Dutch and German are not like Scandinavian where most of them are easily mutually intelligable, (contrary to popular believe) so no.