Gringo, I'm talking about a natural boundary landwise.
Portuguese, the most successfull language in the world!
Gringo, Political and historic boundaries mean diddlysquat. They have no real significance. Political/historical boundaries are not set, they are always subject to change. Even linguistic borders are not necessarily stable. The Pyrenees, the Alps, the Rhine and Danube Rivers are true national frontiers.
Gringo o Viriatum já colocou novamente.
There is one point that makes Portugals age logical. That being Spain, this means the options of expantion in Europe was limited. Both countries attaind world power status at the same time and it wouldn't be logical for the two countries to turn on each other when there was a whole new world to do this with. (Obviously this dosn't mean that there weren't attempts on both sides but in the long run the European borders did stay the same between these two countries)
Take note this is the borders not the country itself obviously Greece is older but its borders have changed through time along with that of Croatia and Hungary.
There is one point that makes Portugals age logical. That being Spain, this means the options of expantion in Europe was limited. Both countries attaind world power status at the same time and it wouldn't be logical for the two countries to turn on each other when there was a whole new world to do this with. (Obviously this dosn't mean that there weren't attempts on both sides but in the long run the European borders did stay the same between these two countries)
Take note this is the borders not the country itself obviously Greece is older but its borders have changed through time along with that of Croatia and Hungary.
I believe that Spain and Portugal have so much in common (linguistically , culturally, racially), that their political/historical border is not very significant.
You want to know if there is a natural mountain like the Pyrenees separating Portugal from Spain, or one big river from side to side?
No, only partial frontiers like Minho, Douro, Guadiana. There are rivers and mountains not one only barrier.
««The Pyrenees, the Alps, the Rhine and Danube Rivers are true national frontiers.»»
Yeah! I do not think any of them stopped the Romans or Napoleon. They are only frontiers between two countries if there is a political frontier, otherwise they are just a physical barrier.
A mountain was not necessary to make a frontier between Portugal and Spain. The political frontiers are the real frontier and you can not say they changed can you? They are the oldest and most stable since the XIII century.
««Political/historical boundaries are not set, they are always subject to change. »»
Tell me what was the time you think they have changed.
No, only partial frontiers like Minho, Douro, Guadiana. There are rivers and mountains not one only barrier.
««The Pyrenees, the Alps, the Rhine and Danube Rivers are true national frontiers.»»
Yeah! I do not think any of them stopped the Romans or Napoleon. They are only frontiers between two countries if there is a political frontier, otherwise they are just a physical barrier.
A mountain was not necessary to make a frontier between Portugal and Spain. The political frontiers are the real frontier and you can not say they changed can you? They are the oldest and most stable since the XIII century.
««Political/historical boundaries are not set, they are always subject to change. »»
Tell me what was the time you think they have changed.
Gringo, I don't think they have ever changed, and since Portugal and Spain have so much in common, their common boundary is unlikely to ever change. Physical barriers, or frontiers make better borders, don't you think? Don't you think that the Alps have prevented many (not all) invasions onto Italian soil? I would think that natural boundaries are a more solid frontier than just a line on the map, like the line that separates Portugal from Spain.
a.p.a.m. I understand what you want to say. It is right they give better protection and some nations survived because of them, but that was not the case of Portugal.
Just think if some country wanted to invade Portugal the Pyrenees were also a barrier the next barrier was Spain that was in the way. [not considering Napoleon's invasion]
Notice that today with the EU, as during the Roman empire, they are not frontiers but barriers [imagine crossing by horse].
But what I really think that makes the best frontiers are clever politics and better armies.
Just think if some country wanted to invade Portugal the Pyrenees were also a barrier the next barrier was Spain that was in the way. [not considering Napoleon's invasion]
Notice that today with the EU, as during the Roman empire, they are not frontiers but barriers [imagine crossing by horse].
But what I really think that makes the best frontiers are clever politics and better armies.
Portugal's borders have changed as well (sometimes Galicia was part of Portugal, sometimes not; sometimes south of Portugal was Arabian, sometimes not; sometimes the whole Portugal belonged to Spain, sometimes not) so, Portugal cannot be considered:
1) the oldest state in Europe
2) the state with unchanged borders
Deixem de cagar, lusitanada xucra!
1) the oldest state in Europe
2) the state with unchanged borders
Deixem de cagar, lusitanada xucra!
Llorenna you only change your name but keep being an idiot. And a very bumb one. Your knowledge of history is a joke. Your refined language reveals your education, or better: the lack of it.
<<the jews completely abandoned Judeia, Galileia, Israel, Palestine>>
But they did not completely leave Portugal!!!
Viriatum I still think that your school days were a long time ago.
Otherwise you would know that the jews have lived in Iberian Peninsula at least since the time of the Romans. Pedro Nunes was a great matematician and a cristao novo. Marques de Pombal abolished the distinction between cristao novo and cristao velho.You think that the Portuguese jews evaporated?
But they did not completely leave Portugal!!!
Viriatum I still think that your school days were a long time ago.
Otherwise you would know that the jews have lived in Iberian Peninsula at least since the time of the Romans. Pedro Nunes was a great matematician and a cristao novo. Marques de Pombal abolished the distinction between cristao novo and cristao velho.You think that the Portuguese jews evaporated?
Deixem de cagar, lusitanada xucra!
Não é necesario bastou tu abrirs a boca.
Não é necesario bastou tu abrirs a boca.
And Viriato do not forget the thousands of jews that Aristides de Sousa made Portuguese with just a piece of paper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristides_de_Sousa_Mendes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristides_de_Sousa_Mendes
I see we got some "gutter mouths" disrupting, but it's what idiots do and not worthy of much attention.
Concerning the jew issue, it was off topic, but if you wanna portray it here...
The jews left their native land and left it for another people to own it.
Actually, you could say it is exactly the same people, only some turned christians, the majority kept being jews and in the 5th century a great deal of them became muslim.
The jews left the land to the muslims (nowadays Palestinians), then in 1947 they go back to the land that is not their's anymore and steal it from the Palestinians, they massacre them, they kill, slaughter, annihilate whatever they feel like...
This has nothing to do with the jews in Portugal, Spain, Holland or anywhere else in the World.
And for clarification on the real topic here... Galicia was never part of Portugal, Portugal never belonged to Spain.
a.p.a.m. I don't know what exactly you're discussing, but seems to be something relating to Plato's "Ideas World"...
We're talking about the borders Portugal has set, not the ideal borders for Portugal!
But if you insist, I'll give you some physical borders...
1- Rivers:
a) Minho (from S. Gregório to Caminha)
b) Castro (from Ribeiro de Baixo to Lindoso)
c) Douro (from Paradela to Barca d'Alva)
d) Águeda + Ribeira de Tourões (from Fuentes de Oñoro to Barca d'Alva)
e) Torto + Erges (from Senhora do Bom Sucesso to Rosmaninhal)
f) Tejo/Tagus/Tajo (from Rosmaninhal to Perais)
g) Sever (from Santo António das Areias to Perais)
h) Guadiana (from Caia to Telheiro/Monsaraz)
i) Chança (from Vila Verde de Ficalho to Pomarão)
j) Guadiana (from Pomarão to Vila Real de Stº António)
Are these enough? There are more, but some are negligeable water courses
2- Mountain ridges:
a) Peneda
b) Soajo
c) Gerês
d) Barroso
e) Coroa
f) Montesinho
g) Malcata
h) Marvão
i) São Mamede
j) Adiça
These are the "geographical" borders.
Then there are others, such as proheminent rocks, valleys, etc.
For example; In the village of Moimenta, municipality of Vinhais, district of Bragança there is the "Rock of the 3 Kingdoms". This rock is almost 3 shaped, and set the borders for Portugal, Galicia and Castilla.
So... There are physical borders, not just political ones!!!
If you like to discuss if those are the ideal ones, then please discuss it with polititians, military, whatever, but it's not what is being discussed here.
Now for Gringo...
"Viriatum I still think that your school days were a long time ago.
Otherwise you would know that the jews have lived in Iberian Peninsula at least since the time of the Romans. Pedro Nunes was a great matematician and a cristao novo. Marques de Pombal abolished the distinction between cristao novo and cristao velho.You think that the Portuguese jews evaporated?"
Did I state otherwise???
Did I even mention Portugal, when commenting on the jew issue, on my post in page 12???
Did I ever bring up the issue of jews brought to Portugal in WW II by a Council in Germany? Council that was exhonerated for not following Govermental Directives?
So I guess it would be my turn to say... "Gringo I guess your oftalmologist days were a long time ago, pay your oftalmologist a visit, please?"...
Apparently you're seeing statements where they're not, man...
Cheers!
Concerning the jew issue, it was off topic, but if you wanna portray it here...
The jews left their native land and left it for another people to own it.
Actually, you could say it is exactly the same people, only some turned christians, the majority kept being jews and in the 5th century a great deal of them became muslim.
The jews left the land to the muslims (nowadays Palestinians), then in 1947 they go back to the land that is not their's anymore and steal it from the Palestinians, they massacre them, they kill, slaughter, annihilate whatever they feel like...
This has nothing to do with the jews in Portugal, Spain, Holland or anywhere else in the World.
And for clarification on the real topic here... Galicia was never part of Portugal, Portugal never belonged to Spain.
a.p.a.m. I don't know what exactly you're discussing, but seems to be something relating to Plato's "Ideas World"...
We're talking about the borders Portugal has set, not the ideal borders for Portugal!
But if you insist, I'll give you some physical borders...
1- Rivers:
a) Minho (from S. Gregório to Caminha)
b) Castro (from Ribeiro de Baixo to Lindoso)
c) Douro (from Paradela to Barca d'Alva)
d) Águeda + Ribeira de Tourões (from Fuentes de Oñoro to Barca d'Alva)
e) Torto + Erges (from Senhora do Bom Sucesso to Rosmaninhal)
f) Tejo/Tagus/Tajo (from Rosmaninhal to Perais)
g) Sever (from Santo António das Areias to Perais)
h) Guadiana (from Caia to Telheiro/Monsaraz)
i) Chança (from Vila Verde de Ficalho to Pomarão)
j) Guadiana (from Pomarão to Vila Real de Stº António)
Are these enough? There are more, but some are negligeable water courses
2- Mountain ridges:
a) Peneda
b) Soajo
c) Gerês
d) Barroso
e) Coroa
f) Montesinho
g) Malcata
h) Marvão
i) São Mamede
j) Adiça
These are the "geographical" borders.
Then there are others, such as proheminent rocks, valleys, etc.
For example; In the village of Moimenta, municipality of Vinhais, district of Bragança there is the "Rock of the 3 Kingdoms". This rock is almost 3 shaped, and set the borders for Portugal, Galicia and Castilla.
So... There are physical borders, not just political ones!!!
If you like to discuss if those are the ideal ones, then please discuss it with polititians, military, whatever, but it's not what is being discussed here.
Now for Gringo...
"Viriatum I still think that your school days were a long time ago.
Otherwise you would know that the jews have lived in Iberian Peninsula at least since the time of the Romans. Pedro Nunes was a great matematician and a cristao novo. Marques de Pombal abolished the distinction between cristao novo and cristao velho.You think that the Portuguese jews evaporated?"
Did I state otherwise???
Did I even mention Portugal, when commenting on the jew issue, on my post in page 12???
Did I ever bring up the issue of jews brought to Portugal in WW II by a Council in Germany? Council that was exhonerated for not following Govermental Directives?
So I guess it would be my turn to say... "Gringo I guess your oftalmologist days were a long time ago, pay your oftalmologist a visit, please?"...
Apparently you're seeing statements where they're not, man...
Cheers!
««And for clarification on the real topic here... Galicia was never part of Portugal,»»
Who said Galicia was part of Portugal? How could that be? Only that N Portugal (or better, the county of Portucale) was southern Galicia that became independent.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condado_Portucalense
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reino_da_Galiza
Anyway it seems that the suevi kingdom was called Portu-Cale, included all Galicia and, later, gave the name to the lands of Portugal:
"The Suevi no longer have competitors. For more than one hundred years its kingdom is sustained in the NW part of the Iberian Peninsula. It spreads to Tejo with the capital in Braga(... )and is called Kingdom of Portu-Cale - from the name of two frontier castros in the banks of river Douro."
"Os suevos já não têm concorrentes. Durante mais de uma centúria sustenta-se o seu reino na parte noroeste da Península. Alarga-se até o Tejo com a capital em Braga (já sede de um bispado desde Diocleciano) e chama-se Reino de Portu-Cale — do nome de dois castros fronteiros nas margens do Douro.[2] "
* castro = celtic vilage.
http://www.portuguesefoundation.org/historia1.htm
««Did I even mention Portugal, when commenting on the jew issue, on my post in page 12??? »»
You did not mention Portugal I never said so. I was only trying to say to you that Jews are all the same people, be them in Portugal or in Israel.
It is like when someone says something about the Portuguese, it does not matter if it is about the Portuguese living in China.
I considered you were not realizing that there is a Jewish community in Portugal that is Portuguese.
Who said Galicia was part of Portugal? How could that be? Only that N Portugal (or better, the county of Portucale) was southern Galicia that became independent.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condado_Portucalense
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reino_da_Galiza
Anyway it seems that the suevi kingdom was called Portu-Cale, included all Galicia and, later, gave the name to the lands of Portugal:
"The Suevi no longer have competitors. For more than one hundred years its kingdom is sustained in the NW part of the Iberian Peninsula. It spreads to Tejo with the capital in Braga(... )and is called Kingdom of Portu-Cale - from the name of two frontier castros in the banks of river Douro."
"Os suevos já não têm concorrentes. Durante mais de uma centúria sustenta-se o seu reino na parte noroeste da Península. Alarga-se até o Tejo com a capital em Braga (já sede de um bispado desde Diocleciano) e chama-se Reino de Portu-Cale — do nome de dois castros fronteiros nas margens do Douro.[2] "
* castro = celtic vilage.
http://www.portuguesefoundation.org/historia1.htm
««Did I even mention Portugal, when commenting on the jew issue, on my post in page 12??? »»
You did not mention Portugal I never said so. I was only trying to say to you that Jews are all the same people, be them in Portugal or in Israel.
It is like when someone says something about the Portuguese, it does not matter if it is about the Portuguese living in China.
I considered you were not realizing that there is a Jewish community in Portugal that is Portuguese.