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Galician and Portuguese
««Do you think that Galician Portuguese exists in a language continuum with Portuguese and Spanish? ie. Portuguese to Galician Portuguese to Spanish.»»
Even with Castilian orthography and influence in vocabulary, no, I do not think of Galician as a language continuum between both languages.
In some regions of Galicia the Castilian influence in the language is bigger than in other regions (and we have what was is called castrapo) but that does not make it a continuum. In Galicia, you would not have to learn Castilian in school if there was a continuum.
You have Barranquenho in Portugal which is a border dialect, a mixture of Portuguese and Castilian, it is not considered Portunhol or a continuum, and it is completely different from Galician.
Language is also about culture and history:
"Mas dentro de Portugal ficou a metade da nossa terra, do nosso espírito, da nossa língua, da nossa cultura, da nossa vida, do nosso ser nacional.»
DANIEL R. CASTELAO (1886-1950)
Carta a C. Sánchez Albornoz. Grial num. 47 - 1975"
(But inside Portugal was left half of our land, of our spirit , of our language, of our culture, of our life, of our national being.)
««Do you think the geographical difference might be a factor on why Brazilian Portuguese and most varieties of Latin American Spanish have grown closer together in pronunciation and usage since both their European counterparts are so distant geographically and ethnically (The fact that Brazilians and Latin American Castellanos are more ethnically and culturally similar in languages and types of foods they eat than to their native European counterparts)?»»
The types of food eaten are influenced by native flora and fauna. The differences between Latin American countries are much bigger than between Iberian countries.
Why (and if) Brazilian Portuguese and most varieties of Latin American Spanish have grown closer together in pronunciation and usage is because of the massive immigration of Galicians to Castilian speaking Latin America. I think that it also has to do with the pace the language is spoken not with the pronunciation (a Brazilian accent and a Castilian Latin Amerian one are very different). If you speak slowly you are understood much better than if you speak fast.
“In most of Spanish-speaking countries of Latin America, Spaniards of all origins are sometimes called gallegos. In Brazil, anyone who is blond and light-skinned is often called a galego, but this is mainly due to Northern Portuguese, who are also called galegos by southern Portuguese and Brazilians.”
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)
Can you give me some examples of pronunciation and usage that have grown closer together? (Not considering border Portunhol)
imaginem a cena: um brasileiro chega em Portugal, vai até uma papelaria e diz:
->brasileiro: Bom dia moça.
->moça: Bom dia puto.
->brasileiro: O que, você tá querendo me sacanear?
->moça: Não, aqui em Portugal puto é sinônimo de rapaz.
->brasileiro: A bom! Bom, eu quero um durex, você tem? Quanto custa?
->moça: O que? Depois você reclama se eu te chamar de PUTO!
brasileiro->Hã?
moça->Puto que é puto (como vocês dizem, prostituto) sempre usa durex!
->brasileiro: Sua vaca, me dá logo a porra do durex!
->moça: Isso é uma papelaria, e não um sexy-shop ou uma farmácia.
->brasileiro: ~Sexy-shop? o que isso tem a ver?
->moça: Não se faça de retardado.
->brasileiro: Vá se fuder sua vadia! RAPARIGA DESGRAÇADA! Eu não vou comprar mais nada!
Kenya Sat May 13, 2006 4:03 pm GMT
««imaginem a cena: um brasileiro chega em Portugal, vai até uma papelaria e diz: »»
This dialogue could only come out of your imaginary world, because in every day life it would not take place. You make too many mistakes and you give a very bad image of Brazilians in Portugal, although many are very simple people they are also polite in their manners.
««->brasileiro: Bom dia moça.
->moça: Bom dia puto.
->brasileiro: O que, você tá querendo me sacanear?
->moça: Não, aqui em Portugal puto é sinônimo de rapaz.»»
This is absolutelly wrong. In Portugal, a man that enters a shop is addressed as “Senhor” e.g. “Bom dia senhor” (Good morning Sir) and not “Good morning kid”. In EuPortuguese “puto” means kid.
“Puto” (plural. putos) derives from Latin “putus” that means young boy (menino).
Though it is written slightly different it is pronounced practically the same way as in Latin.
The word (putus) has been used in Portuguese geographic area for more than 2000 years and was spoken in the entire Latin speaking Roman empire. In EuPortuguese the word “puto” has no feminine gender.
In Brazil “putO” does not mean kid. It is the masculine gender of “puta”(from Latin puteo?) short for “prostituta” that means prostitute (from Latin prostitutes).
Brazilians always get shocked by the fact that Portuguese call kids “puto”, but the usage has more than 2000 years (in EuPortuguese low slang “puto”may have the Brazilian meaning [maybe from Spanish] but is never used).
A simple look at the dictionary and etymology of the word clears misunderstandings.
The words that are Homonyms are spelt and pronounced the same ( are both homophones and homographs) like in English "mean" (intend) and "mean" (average).
««->brasileiro: A bom! Bom, eu quero um durex, você tem? Quanto custa? »»
This is a well known joke BRAZILIANS tell about hillbilly BRAZILIANS that travel abroad for the first time. In Brazil “durex” means duct tape, in Europe is a well known English brand with a completely different usage.
««-> RAPARIGA DESGRAÇADA!»»
“Rapariga” means girl. In Brazil acquired a negative connotation, a softer way of saying “puta”, meaning the same as “garota de programa”. Probably with time “garota” (girl), in Brazil, will have the same bad connotation as “rapariga”.
Kenya & Gringo : I think the main issue is to know if every brazillian that enters a shop in Portugal will probably have communicational difficulties or not. The answer is no. After all, all that misunderstanding was about specific comercial designations, if the guy had just asked for a duct tape that confusion wouldn’t have taken place. The fact that not all products commercialized in Brazil are sold in portuguese shops, doesn’t mean a (linguistic) thing.
And yes, Gringo is right, you give a very bad image of brazillians, Kenya. Is the average brazillian guy THAT rude?
Puto/-a or not, Brazilians are a better one night fling, and they will love you in the morning,
but there is something about the sadness of once mighty Portugal that ruled the seas, currently slumped to a mere province -- if that, and not just a county -- at the edge of Europe,
that makes sex with a Portuguese a distinct affair, like eating... er... well perhaps not caviar, but maybe escargots (no one does it on a daily basis).
««Puto/-a or not,»»
You are absolutely off topic, the subject was about a word that has a common meaning in one country but can have an infamous meaning on another country.
««currently slumped to a mere province -- if that, and not just a county -- at the edge of Europe,»»
Mind the edges they can turn out very sharp, in your case, you can not distinguish a country from a province.
««but maybe escargots (no one does it on a daily basis).»»
Your gastronomic preferences, really, keep them to yourself as well as what you do or not on a daily basis...., really, no one cares.
Yours is one of the weirdest posts ever read...
"Can you give me some examples of pronunciation and usage that have grown closer together? (Not considering border Portunhol)"
The reason I think there might be a continuum in that case because of the significant influence that Gallego had on Latin American Caribbean Spanish that it has even changed some of the structure of the language like adding inverted questions to the local dialects. I read in a paper that I recently lost that another feature that changed Caribbean spanish is the pronunciation of the "y" to either a "j" sound or the "s" in leisure. Words in spanish such as "Ya" are pronounced either like "jah" or "zhah" depending of the region of the caribbean. "ya" then is pronounced just like the Galician equivalent "ja".
grin_go(_home): I write what I feel like and NOT what you expect.
As for who cares and does not -- you have conducted a poll? On a representative sample?
I am so happy we don't get any news from Portugal.
Here in Brazil Portugal is ancient history everyone forgot.
Slavery and slaughter is not the thing Portuguese people should be proud of. I am so happy Portugal is enjoying its privacy as the most isolated and forgotten country in Europe.
Can we please start discussing the actual topic with intellectual discussion without including the infighting between the portuguese sects. I am of Portuguese ancestory and thats not denying the facts. My heritage though is Acorian (can't use a cedilla on my computer for some reason sorry) and I also have some Italian and Morroccan heritage ironically that side of the family migrated to Panama and now speaks spanish. Going back to the original comment I was trying to make, I read a magazine article a long time ago about some Colombian, Venezuelan, Brazilian, and Panamanian tourist that went to Spain for some kind of conference for a U.N organization they were representing a coalition of Latin American countries in the conference. Out of all the areas of Spain they felt in terms of language that the Gallego spoken in Galicia was so firmilar to them. The way they speak and the intonation in their speech showed striking similarities to many of the regionalisms in their countries though in different aspects and different ways. I found that very interesting so I decided to watch some satellite programming that I can pick up with the receiver on my TV that is in Gallego. I definately could understand the majority of what they were saying maybe 98%. But the way they speak is much softer than the other varieties of spanish and it is this softness that is familiar sounding to me and reminds me of some accents that prevail in Latin American Castillian Spanish.
Gallego is a dialect of Portuguese -- not a separate language nor a dialect of Spanish.
««The reason I think there might be a continuum in that case because of the significant influence that Gallego had on Latin American Caribbean Spanish that it has even changed some of the structure of the language like adding inverted questions to the local dialects.»»
I do not think it is enough to be called a continuum. Anyway, only listening to both languages would help to make a better judgment.
««I found that very interesting so I decided to watch some satellite programming that I can pick up with the receiver on my TV that is in Gallego. I definately could understand the majority of what they were saying maybe 98%.»»
On Galician TV, you will hear a Galician much influenced by Castilian. I do not think that, in the past, when Galician immigrants went to South America, they spoke with that TV accent. That could explain why the Galician influence was so big. Even today there are, in Galicia, regional accents much less influenced by Castilian than the TV one.
I found this forum where Galician, Portuguese and Brazilians, exchange ideas. Each one writes with its own standard and everybody understands everybody, very cool. If you are interested in knowing if the accent in Galician TV is or not giving you a good idea of the everyday spoken Galician, so you can compare it with Latin American Caribbean, maybe someone there can give you a second oppinion (and a better one no doubt).
http://www.agal-gz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&sid=22f250e965fd53e4b811996ef72ccaaf
Serbo-Canadian in China
««Gallego is a dialect of Portuguese -- not a separate language nor a dialect of Spanish.»»
I agree. But I would say that Portuguese and Galician are both dialects of the same language.
I would say Continental Portuguese and Galician are dialects of Spanish while Brazilian is an independent language.
Já cruzamento de um homem com um camundongo é mais difícil de visualizar. ... Em todos eles, a parte humana levou um baita prejuízo''
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