''I found this forum where Galician, Portuguese and Brazilians, exchange ideas. '' Mucho gusto. Galician = Spanish
Galician and Portuguese
I would say Continental Portuguese and Galician are dialects of Spanish while Brazilian is an independent language.
Já cruzamento de um homem com um camundongo é mais difícil de visualizar. ... Em todos eles, a parte humana levou um baita prejuízo'' /
Quando abre a boca ou entra mosca ou sai asneira.
Já cruzamento de um homem com um camundongo é mais difícil de visualizar. ... Em todos eles, a parte humana levou um baita prejuízo'' /
Quando abre a boca ou entra mosca ou sai asneira.
"Jabberwocky"
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
'Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!'
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
'And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
by Lewis Carroll
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
'Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!'
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
'And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
by Lewis Carroll
A Portuguese translation:
Jaguardarte
Era briluz. As lesmolisas touvas
Roldavam e relviam nos gramilvos.
Estavam mimsicais as pintalouvas,
E os momirratos davam grilvos.
``Foge do Jaguadarte, o que não morre!
Garra que agarra, bocarra que urra!
Foge da ave Felfel, meu filho, e corre
Do frumioso Babassurra!
Êle arrancou sua espada vorpal
E foi atrás do inimigo do Homundo.
Na árvora Tamtam êle afinal
Parou, um dia, sonilundo.
E enquanto estava em sussustada sesta,
Chegou o Jaguadarte, ôlho de fogo,
Sorrelfiflando através da floresta,
E borbulia um riso louco!
Um, dois! Um, dois! Sua espada mavorta
Vai-vem, vem-vai, para trás, para diante!
Cabeça fere, corta, e, fera morta,
Ei-lo que volta galunfante.
``Pois então tu mataste o Jaguadarte!
Vem aos meus braços, homenino meu!
Oh dia fremular! Bravooh! Bravarte!
Êle se ria jubileu.
Era briluz. As lesmolisas touvas
Roldavam e relviam nos gramilvos.
Estavam mimsicais as pintalouvas,
E os momirratos davam grilvos.
por Augusto de Campos
Jaguardarte
Era briluz. As lesmolisas touvas
Roldavam e relviam nos gramilvos.
Estavam mimsicais as pintalouvas,
E os momirratos davam grilvos.
``Foge do Jaguadarte, o que não morre!
Garra que agarra, bocarra que urra!
Foge da ave Felfel, meu filho, e corre
Do frumioso Babassurra!
Êle arrancou sua espada vorpal
E foi atrás do inimigo do Homundo.
Na árvora Tamtam êle afinal
Parou, um dia, sonilundo.
E enquanto estava em sussustada sesta,
Chegou o Jaguadarte, ôlho de fogo,
Sorrelfiflando através da floresta,
E borbulia um riso louco!
Um, dois! Um, dois! Sua espada mavorta
Vai-vem, vem-vai, para trás, para diante!
Cabeça fere, corta, e, fera morta,
Ei-lo que volta galunfante.
``Pois então tu mataste o Jaguadarte!
Vem aos meus braços, homenino meu!
Oh dia fremular! Bravooh! Bravarte!
Êle se ria jubileu.
Era briluz. As lesmolisas touvas
Roldavam e relviam nos gramilvos.
Estavam mimsicais as pintalouvas,
E os momirratos davam grilvos.
por Augusto de Campos
The plural of words ended in "ão".
Portuguese words ended in “ão” have three ways of writing the plural: “ões”, ”ãos” or “ães”.
1-Words with one plural that end in “ões”:
The plural of "balão” is:
“balões”
2-Words with one plural that end in “ães”:
The plural of "cão” is:
“cães"
3-Words with one plural that end in “ãos”:
The plural of "cidadão” is:
“cidadãos”
4-In Portuguese some words ended in “ão” have two ways of writing the same word in the plural.
The plural of "corrimão” is:
“corrimãos” or “corrimões”
5-Some words ended in “ão” can have three different ways of writing the same word in the plural:
The plural of “ancião” is:
“ancião” “anciões” “anciães”
The plural of “vilão” is:
“vilões”, “vilãos” or “vilães”.
The plural of “Aldeão” is:
“aldeãos”, “aldeões”, “aldeães”.
Portuguese words ended in “ão” have three ways of writing the plural: “ões”, ”ãos” or “ães”.
1-Words with one plural that end in “ões”:
The plural of "balão” is:
“balões”
2-Words with one plural that end in “ães”:
The plural of "cão” is:
“cães"
3-Words with one plural that end in “ãos”:
The plural of "cidadão” is:
“cidadãos”
4-In Portuguese some words ended in “ão” have two ways of writing the same word in the plural.
The plural of "corrimão” is:
“corrimãos” or “corrimões”
5-Some words ended in “ão” can have three different ways of writing the same word in the plural:
The plural of “ancião” is:
“ancião” “anciões” “anciães”
The plural of “vilão” is:
“vilões”, “vilãos” or “vilães”.
The plural of “Aldeão” is:
“aldeãos”, “aldeões”, “aldeães”.
A irritação de alguns brasileiros contra o nome da sua língua é compreensível.
A diferenciação entre a norma europeia e a variante brasileira é conhecida, nos seus aspectos mais superficiais : léxico, fonética, mofologia. Menos na sintaxe e semântica. Não prejudica essencialmente a unidade da língua.
Essa diferenciação é um motivo de enriquecimento linguístico e cultural.
Mas é também uma fonte única para estudos comparativos, que podem lançar luz sobre os mecanismos subjacentes à própria evolução linguística , em geral. O que constituirá, no futuro, um extraordinário progresso no nosso conhecimento científico do real.
Por que razão não se vê, então , os defensores do "brasileiro" activamente empenhados em realizar descrições gramaticais científicas e sistemáticas "dessa" sua língua, em todas as suas componentes ( lexical, morfológica , sintáctica , semântica e pragmática) para as contraporem fundamentadamente aos estudos mais tradicionais que não relevam a individualidade linguística do PortugUês do Brasil e não permitem , assim, comparações cientificamente frutuosas?
Trabalho exigente, capacidade de estudo aprofundado, continuada procura intelectual -- como avançar sem isso?
Mas porquê essa atávica falta de horizonte de trabalho e perspectiva, e porquê a constante e alienante fixação em questiúnculas e pseudo-problemas ?
A diferenciação entre a norma europeia e a variante brasileira é conhecida, nos seus aspectos mais superficiais : léxico, fonética, mofologia. Menos na sintaxe e semântica. Não prejudica essencialmente a unidade da língua.
Essa diferenciação é um motivo de enriquecimento linguístico e cultural.
Mas é também uma fonte única para estudos comparativos, que podem lançar luz sobre os mecanismos subjacentes à própria evolução linguística , em geral. O que constituirá, no futuro, um extraordinário progresso no nosso conhecimento científico do real.
Por que razão não se vê, então , os defensores do "brasileiro" activamente empenhados em realizar descrições gramaticais científicas e sistemáticas "dessa" sua língua, em todas as suas componentes ( lexical, morfológica , sintáctica , semântica e pragmática) para as contraporem fundamentadamente aos estudos mais tradicionais que não relevam a individualidade linguística do PortugUês do Brasil e não permitem , assim, comparações cientificamente frutuosas?
Trabalho exigente, capacidade de estudo aprofundado, continuada procura intelectual -- como avançar sem isso?
Mas porquê essa atávica falta de horizonte de trabalho e perspectiva, e porquê a constante e alienante fixação em questiúnculas e pseudo-problemas ?
««A irritação de alguns brasileiros contra o nome da sua língua é compreensível.»«
Não, não é. Os "irritados" podem ser considerados colonizadores de uma terra que pertence aos índios, que falam uma língua que “pertence” originariamente aos Portugueses. (claro, a língua pertence a todos os que têm orgulho de a falar)
««Por que razão não se vê, então , os defensores do "brasileiro" activamente empenhados em realizar descrições gramaticais científicas e sistemáticas "dessa" sua língua,...»»
Because they would be speaking a creole, like Cafundó, and they would be on the top of the list of the Portuguese creole with the biggest number of speakers.
A list of Portuguese creoles:
Cafundó: Spoken in southeast Brazil.
Upper Guinea Crioulo (Kriol) spoken in: Guinea-Bissau, Casamance, Senegal Gambia.
Capeverdean Crioulo (Kriolu, Criol): spoken in Cape Verde.
Angolar (Ngola, N'góla): spoken in in São Tomé Island.
Annobonese (Fá d'Ambô): spoken in Annobón Island.
Forro: spoken in in São Tomé.
Principense (Lunguyê): spoken in Príncipe Island.
Papiamento: spoken in Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao; Spanish/Portuguese (60%), Dutch (25%), African and Arawak (15%).
Saramaccan: spoken in Suriname; Portuguese, English, African (20%),
Diu Indo-Portuguese (almost extinct): spoken in Diu.
Daman Indo-Portuguese (Língua da Casa): spoken in Daman.
Kristi: spoken in Korlai, Maharashtra.
Vaipim Indo-Portuguese: spoken in Vaipim Island, near Kerala.
Sri Lanka Indo-Portuguese: spoken in Batticaloa and Trincomalee
(Burgher) and Puttalam (Kaffir).
Kristang (Cristão): spoken in Malacca (Malaysia) and Singapore.
Macanese (Macaista, Patuá): spoken in Macao.
[wikipedia]
Não, não é. Os "irritados" podem ser considerados colonizadores de uma terra que pertence aos índios, que falam uma língua que “pertence” originariamente aos Portugueses. (claro, a língua pertence a todos os que têm orgulho de a falar)
««Por que razão não se vê, então , os defensores do "brasileiro" activamente empenhados em realizar descrições gramaticais científicas e sistemáticas "dessa" sua língua,...»»
Because they would be speaking a creole, like Cafundó, and they would be on the top of the list of the Portuguese creole with the biggest number of speakers.
A list of Portuguese creoles:
Cafundó: Spoken in southeast Brazil.
Upper Guinea Crioulo (Kriol) spoken in: Guinea-Bissau, Casamance, Senegal Gambia.
Capeverdean Crioulo (Kriolu, Criol): spoken in Cape Verde.
Angolar (Ngola, N'góla): spoken in in São Tomé Island.
Annobonese (Fá d'Ambô): spoken in Annobón Island.
Forro: spoken in in São Tomé.
Principense (Lunguyê): spoken in Príncipe Island.
Papiamento: spoken in Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao; Spanish/Portuguese (60%), Dutch (25%), African and Arawak (15%).
Saramaccan: spoken in Suriname; Portuguese, English, African (20%),
Diu Indo-Portuguese (almost extinct): spoken in Diu.
Daman Indo-Portuguese (Língua da Casa): spoken in Daman.
Kristi: spoken in Korlai, Maharashtra.
Vaipim Indo-Portuguese: spoken in Vaipim Island, near Kerala.
Sri Lanka Indo-Portuguese: spoken in Batticaloa and Trincomalee
(Burgher) and Puttalam (Kaffir).
Kristang (Cristão): spoken in Malacca (Malaysia) and Singapore.
Macanese (Macaista, Patuá): spoken in Macao.
[wikipedia]
Oi moçada. Vamo parar de brincar com essa lusitanada xucra e aloprada? Vamo logo. Senão isso vira uma baita de uma zona. Ninguém merece.
A nice wiki article on our language: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugu%C3%AAs_brasileiro
Portugues Brasileiro
Português brasileiro é o termo usado para classificar A VARIEDADE Da Língua Portuguesa falada pelos mais de 185 milhões de brasileiros que vivem dentro e fora do Brasil, sendo hoje, a variante do português mais falada, lida e escrita no mundo.
......
Há várias diferenças entre o chamado português europeu e o português brasileiro, abreviados: PE e PB, respectivamente. Essas diferenças são no vocabulário, pronúncia e sintaxe, especialmente nas variedades vernáculas, enquanto nos textos formais as diferenças são bem menores (comparáveis às existentes entre o inglês dos Estados Unidos e do Reino Unido). Ambas as variedades são, sem dúvida, dialetos da mesma língua e os falantes de ambas as variedades podem entender-se perfeitamente.
Essas diferenças entre as variantes são comuns a todas as línguas naturais, ocorrendo em maior ou menor grau, dependendo dos casos.
*******************************
Brazilian Portuguese is a collective name for the varieties of Portuguese written and spoken by virtually all the 180 million inhabitants of Brazil and by a couple million Brazilian immigrants and temporary workers in other countries, mainly in Canada, United States, Portugal, Paraguay and Japan.
...........
The Brazilian formal written standard, which is defined by law and by international agreements with other Portuguese-speaking countries, is very similar to the European one; but there are nevertheless many differences in spelling, lexicon, and grammar. Brazilian and European writers also have markedly different preferences when choosing between supposedly equivalent words or constructs.
The formal spoken standard, being tied to the written one, has those same minor differences in lexicon and grammar, but also substantial phonological differences, with noticeable regional variation.
The informal spoken language deviates substantially from the formal standard, even in the rules for agreement; and shows considerable regional variation.
Nevertheless, the cultural prestige and strong government support accorded to the written standard has maintained the unity of the language over the whole country, and ensured that all regional varieties remain fully intelligible. Starting in the 1960s, the nationwide dominance of TV networks based in the southeast (Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo) has made the dialect of that region into an unofficial standard for the spoken language as well.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugu%C3%AAs_brasileiro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Portuguese
Português brasileiro é o termo usado para classificar A VARIEDADE Da Língua Portuguesa falada pelos mais de 185 milhões de brasileiros que vivem dentro e fora do Brasil, sendo hoje, a variante do português mais falada, lida e escrita no mundo.
......
Há várias diferenças entre o chamado português europeu e o português brasileiro, abreviados: PE e PB, respectivamente. Essas diferenças são no vocabulário, pronúncia e sintaxe, especialmente nas variedades vernáculas, enquanto nos textos formais as diferenças são bem menores (comparáveis às existentes entre o inglês dos Estados Unidos e do Reino Unido). Ambas as variedades são, sem dúvida, dialetos da mesma língua e os falantes de ambas as variedades podem entender-se perfeitamente.
Essas diferenças entre as variantes são comuns a todas as línguas naturais, ocorrendo em maior ou menor grau, dependendo dos casos.
*******************************
Brazilian Portuguese is a collective name for the varieties of Portuguese written and spoken by virtually all the 180 million inhabitants of Brazil and by a couple million Brazilian immigrants and temporary workers in other countries, mainly in Canada, United States, Portugal, Paraguay and Japan.
...........
The Brazilian formal written standard, which is defined by law and by international agreements with other Portuguese-speaking countries, is very similar to the European one; but there are nevertheless many differences in spelling, lexicon, and grammar. Brazilian and European writers also have markedly different preferences when choosing between supposedly equivalent words or constructs.
The formal spoken standard, being tied to the written one, has those same minor differences in lexicon and grammar, but also substantial phonological differences, with noticeable regional variation.
The informal spoken language deviates substantially from the formal standard, even in the rules for agreement; and shows considerable regional variation.
Nevertheless, the cultural prestige and strong government support accorded to the written standard has maintained the unity of the language over the whole country, and ensured that all regional varieties remain fully intelligible. Starting in the 1960s, the nationwide dominance of TV networks based in the southeast (Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo) has made the dialect of that region into an unofficial standard for the spoken language as well.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugu%C3%AAs_brasileiro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Portuguese
About Galician, Portuguese and Castilian: During the Middle Ages, the first peninsular vernacular Romance literature was at the Galician Court. (The Aragonese and Catalans might disagree, but their linguistic tradition is really independent of the Port-Gal-Cast root. The Mozarabes might disagree, too.) The standard Court language of poets and troubadours in the non-Moorish zone was Gallego or Leonese-Gallego. Through mergers with the Kingdom of Leon, Castille inherited Gallego as its Court literary language. The Portuguese reconquest moved southward along the Atlantic Coast, and the Portuguese Kingdom also inherited the Gallego Court language.
Keep in mind, that the Portuguese and Castilians were mostly, by necessity, involved in warfare against the Ar. invaders. Galicia was never conquered and it was frankly far enough away from the invaders that they could develop a courtly literary tradition, etc. Similarly, the Ar. kingdoms that were removed from the border areas were also best able to develop their courtly literature. The Castilians and Portuguese were the border people, sometimes the conquered, sometimes the freed, sometimes the neutral. They were not well developed states or cultures as much as border garrisons, raiders, and farmers, of course.
The two daughter languages of Portuguese and Castillian developed their own literary traditions. The local spoken languages of Portugal and Castille (and subsequent territories retaken) changed, depending upon the degree of Ar. contact. (This is why Asturian and Andalusian even today are quite different.) Gallego diminished in stature to a backward regional language in an area that lived mostly off of fishing and Santiago de Compostela pilgrimage tourism for about a millenium. Modern Gallego - by now more influenced by Castilian than previously - was revived as a literary language only really by around the 19th Century by poets like Rosalia de Castro. Because of its isolation, in my opinion, it didn't change too much until the 20th century with mass media from Madrid. Even today, Galicia's biggest export probably is its people.
Why do so many people on this board feel so upset that Gallegos write their "sh" or "j" sound with an X instead of a J? Xesus! Will your self identify collapse if this little people continue their spelling differently from your own?
Gallego is a sister vulgar Latin dialect of the dialects that would come to be Portuguese and Castilian. From a literary standpoint, it is the parent of the two. It is neither a dialect of Castilian nor of Portuguese. Is is really close linguistically to Portuguese? Yes.
Swedish and Norwegian and Danish are pretty close, but they're different enough to be called languages. Surely there's room in the world to "allow" Gallego to continue in its own vitality. What's your problem, idiotas?
Shame on you jerks who are trying to swallow up a little language that means big Brazil and Portugal no harm! I wrote this only because some idiot wrote at the beginning of this thread that some article could be "a start to argue the re-integration of Galician in the Galician- Portuguese- Brazilian language."
Who's next on your lingo-megalomaniacal list? Uruguay? How about Suriname?
If you do plan to annex any countries, please start with New Bedford, Massachusetts and Newark, New Jersey. It might be fun to be able to drive to Brazil or Portugal from New York.
This reminds me of a bizarre story. I was talking to a Brasileira once about geography --OK, I'm a boring guy-- and I thought that I was misunderstanding her story, so I asked her to draw a map of South America. Brazil was the center, of course. Then south of Brazil was Espanha, Argentina and Portugal. North of Brazil was Mexico. This woman wasn't exactly a person in a favela. She was in a cafe in New York, on vacation. In a similar note, a Varig flight attendant pointed below to the area beneath the clouds and told me, "Do you know what that is? It's Switzerland - Italy, Germany, and France." He was actually pointing to an area probably near Santa Catarina State in Brazil. He made it a point to tell me this because he wanted me to know how European Brazil is! (Actually, he spoke in English and used the word "white!" Mas o racismo so' existe afora do Brasil....!)
Idiotas who feel compelled to wipe away other languages (and peoples) should be made aware that someone, somewhere, not too different from you, is undoubtedly saying that you speak a dialect of their language, that your country or people are this way or that way... There are far too many evil people wishing other people ill. Please don't be linguanazis! It points at larger mental problems...
Earlier questions like "is Galician a dialect of Port or Span?" or "is Galician somewhere between Sp and Port?" or worse - is "Galician just a few different words and spelling differences?" are all ahistorical. Gallego is the old parent that everyone forgot or doesn't want to remember, because it would make the " imperial" Spain and Portugal (and their imperialist descendants with delusions of grandeur) seem diminished. The current Gallego isn't 100% 10th Century Gallego, but a lot of medieval "Spanish" literature looks a whole lot like Gallego -even with the same spellings- and judging from the spelling, literary medieval Castilian for time probably didn't sound too different from Gallego.
In case some idiota starts accusing me of being a Galician nationalist, for the record, I am not Portuguese, Galician or Hispanic. I majored in Spanish and studied Portuguese. I like these 3 languages, as well as all the others that I have studied. My only knowledge of Gallego is a trip there in the 1980's, a few hours of watching TV Galicia on the internet, and some experiences reading Rosalia de Castro's poetry, and some online newspapers.
One other thing, just to cause problems: "Brazilian" (the Portuguese that I speak), is still Portuguese. For goshsakes, let's stop being so silly guys. Although I'm writing in my native American English grammar, I'm still writing and speaking English. It was a sign of inferiority that made early Americans try to create the myth of the " American language." The same thing is happening in Brazil. The insignificance of modern Portugal on modern Brazilian culture doesn't mean that now there's a Brazilian language. If you want to use these rules, then there isn't only an American language, there's a Texas language, a New York language, a Mississippi language, a Chicago language, a Newfoundland language, and dozens of languages in the British isles.
Not being fluent in Portuguese (Brazilian?), I have no problem understanding Brazilian TV or Portuguese TV. The person who wrote earlier that he thought RTP was Polish TV probably knows very little Brazilian Portuguese, because I have never known a Brazilian to be utterly baffled by the speech of Continental Portuguese.
I think that some people say there is a true language distinction when "educated" speakers of two "dialects" can no longer understand one another when speaking their same language. While I can understand most everything that BBC speaker says, I found myself completely baffled by a train rider in Yorkshire and a Scotsman in Edinburgh who spoke in their own local English dialects. They understood me, because I spoke like the people that they see in most American TV shows and movies, but I could not understand them. Was it because they were not speaking English or because the American language is a different language from British? Nope. It's just a matter of broad dialects. " Standard" Brazil Portuguese isn't all that different from " Standard" Continental Portuguese unless you want to create a false construct. That means that both national varieties are just part of the same language. If it hurts Brazilians' pride to call their language Portuguese, then perhaps the PT's and BR's should create some other name. Call it something neutral. How about "Azorean?" (LOL)
Similarly: I also enjoy French, including Canadian French, and people who say that they understand French from Paris but cannot at all figure out standard Montreal French are morons. I learned Parisian French in the US during a summer intensive course and travelled to Quebec and understood virtually everything immediately. Some Quebec people do garble their speech, following the Norman French antecedents, but Parisian argot is not too understandable for the uninitiated either.
Blow your mind: Currently I am compiling a list of Korean-Indo European cognates. I have found that a number of Korean words are cognates of Germanic and Latin - such as the verb "ga" (go), "oma" (mama), "aba" (papa), "mani" (many).
By the way, look at the Dama de Elche and tell me that the Iberians weren't "Asian?" Please stop creating barriers rather than bridges.
(http://images.google.com/images?as_q=Dama+de+elche&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images&sa=N&tab=wi)
If I easily can find links between neolithically related languages on the farthest reaches of Eurasia, why the heck are so many people on this board, most being close cousins, so desirous of finding great differences between their nearby kin? Tristeza....
Keep in mind, that the Portuguese and Castilians were mostly, by necessity, involved in warfare against the Ar. invaders. Galicia was never conquered and it was frankly far enough away from the invaders that they could develop a courtly literary tradition, etc. Similarly, the Ar. kingdoms that were removed from the border areas were also best able to develop their courtly literature. The Castilians and Portuguese were the border people, sometimes the conquered, sometimes the freed, sometimes the neutral. They were not well developed states or cultures as much as border garrisons, raiders, and farmers, of course.
The two daughter languages of Portuguese and Castillian developed their own literary traditions. The local spoken languages of Portugal and Castille (and subsequent territories retaken) changed, depending upon the degree of Ar. contact. (This is why Asturian and Andalusian even today are quite different.) Gallego diminished in stature to a backward regional language in an area that lived mostly off of fishing and Santiago de Compostela pilgrimage tourism for about a millenium. Modern Gallego - by now more influenced by Castilian than previously - was revived as a literary language only really by around the 19th Century by poets like Rosalia de Castro. Because of its isolation, in my opinion, it didn't change too much until the 20th century with mass media from Madrid. Even today, Galicia's biggest export probably is its people.
Why do so many people on this board feel so upset that Gallegos write their "sh" or "j" sound with an X instead of a J? Xesus! Will your self identify collapse if this little people continue their spelling differently from your own?
Gallego is a sister vulgar Latin dialect of the dialects that would come to be Portuguese and Castilian. From a literary standpoint, it is the parent of the two. It is neither a dialect of Castilian nor of Portuguese. Is is really close linguistically to Portuguese? Yes.
Swedish and Norwegian and Danish are pretty close, but they're different enough to be called languages. Surely there's room in the world to "allow" Gallego to continue in its own vitality. What's your problem, idiotas?
Shame on you jerks who are trying to swallow up a little language that means big Brazil and Portugal no harm! I wrote this only because some idiot wrote at the beginning of this thread that some article could be "a start to argue the re-integration of Galician in the Galician- Portuguese- Brazilian language."
Who's next on your lingo-megalomaniacal list? Uruguay? How about Suriname?
If you do plan to annex any countries, please start with New Bedford, Massachusetts and Newark, New Jersey. It might be fun to be able to drive to Brazil or Portugal from New York.
This reminds me of a bizarre story. I was talking to a Brasileira once about geography --OK, I'm a boring guy-- and I thought that I was misunderstanding her story, so I asked her to draw a map of South America. Brazil was the center, of course. Then south of Brazil was Espanha, Argentina and Portugal. North of Brazil was Mexico. This woman wasn't exactly a person in a favela. She was in a cafe in New York, on vacation. In a similar note, a Varig flight attendant pointed below to the area beneath the clouds and told me, "Do you know what that is? It's Switzerland - Italy, Germany, and France." He was actually pointing to an area probably near Santa Catarina State in Brazil. He made it a point to tell me this because he wanted me to know how European Brazil is! (Actually, he spoke in English and used the word "white!" Mas o racismo so' existe afora do Brasil....!)
Idiotas who feel compelled to wipe away other languages (and peoples) should be made aware that someone, somewhere, not too different from you, is undoubtedly saying that you speak a dialect of their language, that your country or people are this way or that way... There are far too many evil people wishing other people ill. Please don't be linguanazis! It points at larger mental problems...
Earlier questions like "is Galician a dialect of Port or Span?" or "is Galician somewhere between Sp and Port?" or worse - is "Galician just a few different words and spelling differences?" are all ahistorical. Gallego is the old parent that everyone forgot or doesn't want to remember, because it would make the " imperial" Spain and Portugal (and their imperialist descendants with delusions of grandeur) seem diminished. The current Gallego isn't 100% 10th Century Gallego, but a lot of medieval "Spanish" literature looks a whole lot like Gallego -even with the same spellings- and judging from the spelling, literary medieval Castilian for time probably didn't sound too different from Gallego.
In case some idiota starts accusing me of being a Galician nationalist, for the record, I am not Portuguese, Galician or Hispanic. I majored in Spanish and studied Portuguese. I like these 3 languages, as well as all the others that I have studied. My only knowledge of Gallego is a trip there in the 1980's, a few hours of watching TV Galicia on the internet, and some experiences reading Rosalia de Castro's poetry, and some online newspapers.
One other thing, just to cause problems: "Brazilian" (the Portuguese that I speak), is still Portuguese. For goshsakes, let's stop being so silly guys. Although I'm writing in my native American English grammar, I'm still writing and speaking English. It was a sign of inferiority that made early Americans try to create the myth of the " American language." The same thing is happening in Brazil. The insignificance of modern Portugal on modern Brazilian culture doesn't mean that now there's a Brazilian language. If you want to use these rules, then there isn't only an American language, there's a Texas language, a New York language, a Mississippi language, a Chicago language, a Newfoundland language, and dozens of languages in the British isles.
Not being fluent in Portuguese (Brazilian?), I have no problem understanding Brazilian TV or Portuguese TV. The person who wrote earlier that he thought RTP was Polish TV probably knows very little Brazilian Portuguese, because I have never known a Brazilian to be utterly baffled by the speech of Continental Portuguese.
I think that some people say there is a true language distinction when "educated" speakers of two "dialects" can no longer understand one another when speaking their same language. While I can understand most everything that BBC speaker says, I found myself completely baffled by a train rider in Yorkshire and a Scotsman in Edinburgh who spoke in their own local English dialects. They understood me, because I spoke like the people that they see in most American TV shows and movies, but I could not understand them. Was it because they were not speaking English or because the American language is a different language from British? Nope. It's just a matter of broad dialects. " Standard" Brazil Portuguese isn't all that different from " Standard" Continental Portuguese unless you want to create a false construct. That means that both national varieties are just part of the same language. If it hurts Brazilians' pride to call their language Portuguese, then perhaps the PT's and BR's should create some other name. Call it something neutral. How about "Azorean?" (LOL)
Similarly: I also enjoy French, including Canadian French, and people who say that they understand French from Paris but cannot at all figure out standard Montreal French are morons. I learned Parisian French in the US during a summer intensive course and travelled to Quebec and understood virtually everything immediately. Some Quebec people do garble their speech, following the Norman French antecedents, but Parisian argot is not too understandable for the uninitiated either.
Blow your mind: Currently I am compiling a list of Korean-Indo European cognates. I have found that a number of Korean words are cognates of Germanic and Latin - such as the verb "ga" (go), "oma" (mama), "aba" (papa), "mani" (many).
By the way, look at the Dama de Elche and tell me that the Iberians weren't "Asian?" Please stop creating barriers rather than bridges.
(http://images.google.com/images?as_q=Dama+de+elche&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images&sa=N&tab=wi)
If I easily can find links between neolithically related languages on the farthest reaches of Eurasia, why the heck are so many people on this board, most being close cousins, so desirous of finding great differences between their nearby kin? Tristeza....
««The Portuguese reconquest moved southward along the Atlantic Coast, and the Portuguese Kingdom also inherited the Gallego Court language»»
I would not say the Portuguese inherited the Gallego court language. The kingdom of Portugal was southern Gallaecia that became independent, (southern Galicia). Gallego-Portuguese was the language of the kingdom of Portugal (former county of Portucale) and the language of the first king, that was a Galician, and of the first Portuguese people, that were formerly Galicians from the county of Portucale. Southern Galicia, became an independent kingdom called Portugal and conquered the lands to the south from the moors.
The ancient Southern Galicia is, today, the north of Portugal. That is why you can find people referring to that area as Portugaliza. The name of the language of that time is Gallego-Português (Galician-Portuguese).
Galician and Portuguese are dialects of Galician-Portuguese. They are two dialects of the same language. Galician-Portuguese was the spoken language of the XII century no one speaks it any more.
««Galicia was never conquered and it was frankly far enough away from the invaders that they could develop a courtly literary tradition, etc. »»
The only region that was not conquered by the Arabs was the Asturias. Galicia was conquered for a brief period of time.
««The local spoken languages of Portugal and Castille (and subsequent territories retaken) changed, depending upon the degree of Ar. contact.»»
The local spoken language of Portugal was Galician-Portuguese. The contact language was called Lusitanian-Mozarabic. The contact of Gallician-Portuguese with Lusitanian –Mozarabic made the regional north-south Portugal distinction in the regional speech in Portugal.
««Surely there's room in the world to "allow" Gallego to continue in its own vitality. What's your problem, idiotas?»»
Before you start calling people “idiotas” you should check in this forum where you will find many Galicians that want Gallego to continue in “its own vitality”. Have fun! Just don’t call them “idiotas”. LOL
http://www.agal-gz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&sid=3e1eb6524caffb63f7a4d7886680c3c5
««Shame on you jerks who are trying to swallow up a little language that means big Brazil and Portugal no harm! I wrote this only because some idiot wrote at the beginning of this thread that some article could be "a start to argue the re-integration of Galician in the Galician- Portuguese- Brazilian language."»»
A little language? According to Galician nationalists it is a big and international language. By the way do you know Galician is spoken in the European Parliament as any other official language? Galician Euro-deputies address all other members in their own language, Galician. The same does not happen with other minority languages of Spain. Galician is translated by Portuguese translators to all other members. The cultural and language link of Portugal and Galicia is well known.
««Who's next on your lingo-megalomaniacal list? Uruguay? How about Suriname?
If you do plan to annex any countries, please start with New Bedford, Massachusetts and Newark, New Jersey. It might be fun to be able to drive to Brazil or Portugal from New York.»»
Actually you can drive from Portugal to Galicia. Reintegration is an important thing for Galician Nationalists. Portuguese and Brazilian did not invent it. And Brazil is an independent country though it speaks Portuguese, what has language got to do with independence?
««Idiotas who feel compelled to wipe away other languages (and peoples) should be made aware that someone, somewhere, not too different from you, is undoubtedly saying that you speak a dialect of their language, that your country or people are this way or that way... There are far too many evil people wishing other people ill. Please don't be linguanazis! It points at larger mental problems...»»
You know, you just reminded me of Australia when it tried to impose English to Timor Lorosae. Would you call them linguanazis? With larger mental problems?
««This reminds me of a bizarre story. I was talking to a Brasileira once about geography --OK, I'm a boring guy-- and I thought that I was misunderstanding her story, so I asked her to draw a map of South America. Brazil was the center, of course.»»
Try asking the same question to your fellow countryman. haha
««Gallego is the old parent that everyone forgot or doesn't want to remember, because it would make the " imperial" Spain and Portugal (and their imperialist descendants with delusions of grandeur) seem diminished. The current Gallego isn't 100% 10th Century Gallego, but a lot of medieval "Spanish" literature looks a whole lot like Gallego -even with the same spellings- and judging from the spelling, literary medieval Castilian for time probably didn't sound too different from Gallego»»
The old parent is Gallician-Portuguese and no one else speaks it. How it sounded really there is no record of it, but, when do you suppose Castilian lost the nasal vowels? :)
Strange, there is still a lot of “same spelling” between Portuguese and Castilian language I would say even with Latin ;)
««In case some idiota starts accusing me of being a Galician nationalist, for the record, I am not Portuguese, Galician or Hispanic. I majored in Spanish and studied Portuguese. I like these 3 languages, as well as all the others that I have studied»»
Galician nationalist? No, quite on the contrary! Don’t worry you will never be mistaken by one. If you majored in Spanish and learned Portuguese that is good, but you did not learn History and you are making a big confusion.
“The person who wrote earlier that he thought RTP was Polish TV probably knows very little Brazilian Portuguese, because I have never known a Brazilian to be utterly baffled by the speech of Continental Portuguese.”
Polish is quite an exaggeration. I would say people who never heard Portuguese mistaken it with Russian or just say it is Slavic ( Brazilians do not think this of course).
This is how it is introduced in an American University:
“Intrigued by a language that looks suspiciously like Spanish, but which sounds more like Russian?”
http://www.brown.edu/Students/Critical_Review/2003.2004.1/PB0011_1SOB.html
««By the way, look at the Dama de Elche and tell me that the Iberians weren't "Asian?"»»
No one knows. You can not tell what they were by a statue, and DNA did not prove it. There is a well documented relation between Iberia and the region of Caucasian Iberia, that is why the Basques city, Bilbao, and the Georgian capital Tbilisi are twin cities.
Good work on your history. But before calling people “idiotas”or “linguanazis” you should really know what you are talking about, I think you are making confusion based on wrong information other wise you will be mistaken by one of the “idiotas”or “linguanazis”. And Galician language on Tv is called castrapo by nationalists.
I would not say the Portuguese inherited the Gallego court language. The kingdom of Portugal was southern Gallaecia that became independent, (southern Galicia). Gallego-Portuguese was the language of the kingdom of Portugal (former county of Portucale) and the language of the first king, that was a Galician, and of the first Portuguese people, that were formerly Galicians from the county of Portucale. Southern Galicia, became an independent kingdom called Portugal and conquered the lands to the south from the moors.
The ancient Southern Galicia is, today, the north of Portugal. That is why you can find people referring to that area as Portugaliza. The name of the language of that time is Gallego-Português (Galician-Portuguese).
Galician and Portuguese are dialects of Galician-Portuguese. They are two dialects of the same language. Galician-Portuguese was the spoken language of the XII century no one speaks it any more.
««Galicia was never conquered and it was frankly far enough away from the invaders that they could develop a courtly literary tradition, etc. »»
The only region that was not conquered by the Arabs was the Asturias. Galicia was conquered for a brief period of time.
««The local spoken languages of Portugal and Castille (and subsequent territories retaken) changed, depending upon the degree of Ar. contact.»»
The local spoken language of Portugal was Galician-Portuguese. The contact language was called Lusitanian-Mozarabic. The contact of Gallician-Portuguese with Lusitanian –Mozarabic made the regional north-south Portugal distinction in the regional speech in Portugal.
««Surely there's room in the world to "allow" Gallego to continue in its own vitality. What's your problem, idiotas?»»
Before you start calling people “idiotas” you should check in this forum where you will find many Galicians that want Gallego to continue in “its own vitality”. Have fun! Just don’t call them “idiotas”. LOL
http://www.agal-gz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&sid=3e1eb6524caffb63f7a4d7886680c3c5
««Shame on you jerks who are trying to swallow up a little language that means big Brazil and Portugal no harm! I wrote this only because some idiot wrote at the beginning of this thread that some article could be "a start to argue the re-integration of Galician in the Galician- Portuguese- Brazilian language."»»
A little language? According to Galician nationalists it is a big and international language. By the way do you know Galician is spoken in the European Parliament as any other official language? Galician Euro-deputies address all other members in their own language, Galician. The same does not happen with other minority languages of Spain. Galician is translated by Portuguese translators to all other members. The cultural and language link of Portugal and Galicia is well known.
««Who's next on your lingo-megalomaniacal list? Uruguay? How about Suriname?
If you do plan to annex any countries, please start with New Bedford, Massachusetts and Newark, New Jersey. It might be fun to be able to drive to Brazil or Portugal from New York.»»
Actually you can drive from Portugal to Galicia. Reintegration is an important thing for Galician Nationalists. Portuguese and Brazilian did not invent it. And Brazil is an independent country though it speaks Portuguese, what has language got to do with independence?
««Idiotas who feel compelled to wipe away other languages (and peoples) should be made aware that someone, somewhere, not too different from you, is undoubtedly saying that you speak a dialect of their language, that your country or people are this way or that way... There are far too many evil people wishing other people ill. Please don't be linguanazis! It points at larger mental problems...»»
You know, you just reminded me of Australia when it tried to impose English to Timor Lorosae. Would you call them linguanazis? With larger mental problems?
««This reminds me of a bizarre story. I was talking to a Brasileira once about geography --OK, I'm a boring guy-- and I thought that I was misunderstanding her story, so I asked her to draw a map of South America. Brazil was the center, of course.»»
Try asking the same question to your fellow countryman. haha
««Gallego is the old parent that everyone forgot or doesn't want to remember, because it would make the " imperial" Spain and Portugal (and their imperialist descendants with delusions of grandeur) seem diminished. The current Gallego isn't 100% 10th Century Gallego, but a lot of medieval "Spanish" literature looks a whole lot like Gallego -even with the same spellings- and judging from the spelling, literary medieval Castilian for time probably didn't sound too different from Gallego»»
The old parent is Gallician-Portuguese and no one else speaks it. How it sounded really there is no record of it, but, when do you suppose Castilian lost the nasal vowels? :)
Strange, there is still a lot of “same spelling” between Portuguese and Castilian language I would say even with Latin ;)
««In case some idiota starts accusing me of being a Galician nationalist, for the record, I am not Portuguese, Galician or Hispanic. I majored in Spanish and studied Portuguese. I like these 3 languages, as well as all the others that I have studied»»
Galician nationalist? No, quite on the contrary! Don’t worry you will never be mistaken by one. If you majored in Spanish and learned Portuguese that is good, but you did not learn History and you are making a big confusion.
“The person who wrote earlier that he thought RTP was Polish TV probably knows very little Brazilian Portuguese, because I have never known a Brazilian to be utterly baffled by the speech of Continental Portuguese.”
Polish is quite an exaggeration. I would say people who never heard Portuguese mistaken it with Russian or just say it is Slavic ( Brazilians do not think this of course).
This is how it is introduced in an American University:
“Intrigued by a language that looks suspiciously like Spanish, but which sounds more like Russian?”
http://www.brown.edu/Students/Critical_Review/2003.2004.1/PB0011_1SOB.html
««By the way, look at the Dama de Elche and tell me that the Iberians weren't "Asian?"»»
No one knows. You can not tell what they were by a statue, and DNA did not prove it. There is a well documented relation between Iberia and the region of Caucasian Iberia, that is why the Basques city, Bilbao, and the Georgian capital Tbilisi are twin cities.
Good work on your history. But before calling people “idiotas”or “linguanazis” you should really know what you are talking about, I think you are making confusion based on wrong information other wise you will be mistaken by one of the “idiotas”or “linguanazis”. And Galician language on Tv is called castrapo by nationalists.
Try this link for the Galician forum.
http://www.agal-gz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=index
http://www.agal-gz.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=index