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Galician and Portuguese
''If the public schools fail to teach blame the MINISTERY OF EDUCATION, Portugal has nothing to do with your teaching problems.''
Portugal never opened any university in Brazil during 300 years of ruling.
UK opened many in Northern America, and Spained opened many in Central (Mexico, Santo Domingo) and Southern America (Lima).
Portugal never really cared about Brazil. That's why Brazil has equal feeling towards Portugal now.
T +!!!
i hv seen it posted here somewhere, about the Brazilian variety including the gerund form,like spanish, while the european variety almost not using it in the normal vocabulary. Well, who thinks this is very wrong, there are regions in Portugal where you use the gerund, and one of them is Alentejo, it's very common to see people saying things like, estou comendo(I'm eating ), que estás dizendo (what are u saying )
Marcos. Brazil has been an independent nation since 1822. Hasn't this been enough time for Brazilians to be the masters of their own destiny. Surely the fate of the Brazilian people is in their own hands. What's stopping Brazilians from going to school and making something of themselves? Please don't say it's the Portuguese who are to blame.
Slavery existed in the United States too, and today the African-Americans are educating themselves and becoming powerful in the American political mainstream. Don't forget that Afro-Americans were subject to racial discrimination in the U.S. up until the mid-60s. So they have had no real advantage over Afro-Brazilians in terms of getting ahead in life. Slavery was abolished in Brazil in 1888. In the U.S. slavery was abolished in 1865. After that, in reality, Afro-Americans were considered only second, if not third class citizens up until the mid 60s. Yet they have overcome many, many obstacles to rise above their adversity. The Afro-Brazilians can do the same, no?
You may argue that there were many higher learning institutions in America, but what good were they when they were only accessible to the white middle and upper classes? Where was the advantage to the black Americans?? In other words, what good were all of those universities if black Americans couldn't attend them? Brazil's system of education might have taken longer to develop, but the truth is that Afro-Brazilians were not any more disadvantaged than their Afro-American counterparts. The socio-economic situation was dire for the blacks in both cases. Elitism existed in every European colony. That some European countries established universities in their colonies earlier than others is a moot point. Again, universities are useless if only the ruling elites and middle-upper classes are able to attend them. This is systemic problem that exists within a country. Corrupt governments perpetuate the problem. The socio-economic problems of Brazil fall squarely on the shoulders of the corrupt Brazilian government. This is the sad reality of almost all of Latin America. But some countries like Costa Rica are doing alright, and they are just a tiny nation. Comparatively speaking, Costa Rica is doing better than other Latin American countries 50 or 100 times its size. So countries and people can rise above adversity if the will is there.
Does it really matter that there were universities in other Latin American countries earlier than Brazil? NO. What good have those universities done for the impoverished citizens of those countries who are too poor to attend them? None. Are those Spanish speaking countries economically better off than Brazil. No. So Marcos, your argument doesn't hold water with me. It's time for Brazilians to stop blaming all of their problems on tiny little Portugal, which, by the way, is doing quite well.
««Nope, Brazilians teachers don't teach Brazilian but Continental Portuguese. Continental Portuguese forms like ''viram-na'' or ''digam-me'' are forced while Brazilian forms are ignored.
You can read more in my book ''Português ou Brasileiro'' »»
Which one, your book writen in Portuguese or the one in "Brasileiro"?
I think you decided to write it only in Portuguese. What a shame no one can understand it in Brazil.
««Portugal never opened any university in Brazil during 300 years of ruling.»»
That is because no one could understand Portuguese everybody spoke LIngua Geral. Just imagine, if today, speaking Brazilian Portuguese, no one can understand the teachers, when everybody spoke Tupi was even worst.
««Portugal never really cared about Brazil. That's why Brazil has equal feeling towards Portugal now.»»
What????You are not going to open an University in Portugal?
No problem no one would understand Brazilian!
I have [erroneously] installed my WindowsXP with a wrong language option (PT-Portugal instead of PT-BRazil). I didn't understand a bit...''ficheiro, aceder, utilizador''. Essa não é minha língua. Num dá pra sacar bulhufas. No final, acabei mudando e voltei a ser faceira com a língua brasileira.
Marcos:
That's why Brazil has equal feeling towards Portugal now.
An example of the equal feelings Brazil has toward Portugal:
"O exercício da cidadania brasileira por não-nacionais brasileiros (no caso, portugueses) constitui uma rara exceção ao princípio de que a nacionalidade é condição sine qua non para a cidadania, aberta aos portugueses - desde que com reciprocidade de tratamento para os brasileiros - em nome do relacionamento histórico entre os dois países."
The Portuguese are THE ONLY ONES to have citizen and political rights in Brazil. Brazil does not give this previlege to any other country except Portugal. Portuguese that live in Brazil have the same rights as Brazilians.
This is a good example of the feelings Brazil has towards Portugal.
MArcos stop talking nonsense, your ignorance has no limits. What do you know about Brazil? Don't talk about what you do not know. You are making a fool of your self.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nacionalidade_brasileira
As for the statistics: I believe that 10% is an optimistic estimate for the number of Brazilians who would be able to speak formal Portuguese correctly if they had to. This guess is based on my experience that 50% or more of undergraduate students cannot do it. Now, how many Brazilians get to high school? If you have other estimates, let's discuss them.
As far as I can tell, the situation in Portugal is very different: the spoken informal register is very close to the formal spoken one. Ditto for the US. Indeed, English teachers in the US generally tell students to "write naturally, as one speaks". Whereas Portuguese teachers in Brazil spend 20 years telling students that almost everyting that they say is wrong.
All the best.
When a non-portuguese-speaking foreigner comes to live here in Portugal, he/she usually learns the language in about one year. He or she learns portuguese, the language of the land.
I wonder how strange and alien a brazilian would feel if, when arriving in Portugal and speaking his tongue people told him/her: "Speak portuguese, you should learn portuguese when coming to live in Portugal!".
I mean, if, to some brazilians, their language is brazilian, surely they would have to "learn" portuguese and speak portuguese (with the proper european portuguese accent,, of course) when living in Portugal.
I doubt that there is one single brazilian that has ever thought that he must learn portuguese to go live in Portugal. Does this make any sense at all??!...
I agree Viri Amaoro, it would certainly be preposterous for the Portuguese to expect the Brazilians to speak with a European Portuguese accent. And as you correctly point out:
"I doubt that there is one single brazilian that has ever thought that he must learn portuguese to go live in Portugal."
Similarly, I would add that the English don't expect Canadians or Americans to speak with an English accent. Castilians wouldn't expect Cubans to speak with a Castilian accent, and so on, and so on.
I know many Portguese and Brazilians, and frankly, I personally have never heard any Portuguese person complain about the Brazilian accent - - the continental Portuguese are actually rather fond of it.
Thanks for the input, Tomi. I was actually trying to make a point to those brazilian tupiniquins (nativist nationalists) that if they really speak a separate language, brazilian, then they must learn portuguese (a different language than "brazilian") when they come to Portugal.
They should take courses in portuguese, pass an exam etc. If this sounds bizarre, well, it sounds just as bizarre to speak of a "brazilian" language.
“A designação da língua do Brasil, incerta como a sua vigência,
oscilava entre dialeto brasileiro (Alencar, Macedo Soares, Araripe, Romero), luso-brasileiro ( Macedo Soares, Batista Caetano, Paranhos da Silva), luso-americano (Romero), neoportuguês (Araripe), brasileiro (Macedo Soares), enfim, o “nosso idioma”... (Pinto, 1978: XXXII). E língua brasileira (Macedo Soares, Dicionário).
Vejamos o que diz Macedo Soares:
Em geral , falamos esse dialeto, mas procuramos escrever um português
que às vezes não é entendido, porque... digamos com franqueza:
o português de Portugal não é inteiramente a língua do Brasil, e é raro
escrever bem não sendo na própria língua (Soares, 1954: XX).
Macedo Soares designa o português do Brasil às vezes como dialeto,
às vezes como língua brasileira. Esse lexicólogo e lexicógrafo, embora
trabalhando empiricamente, dedicou-se à pesquisa de campo, recolhendo
regionalismos vocabulares no Paraná, Minas e São Paulo.
A primeira tentativa de descrever o vocabulário brasileiro
foi feita por Antônio Joaquim Macedo Soares. Ele seria o primeiro
dicionarista a descrever o português brasileiro se sua obra tivesse sido publicada integralmente no século dezenove. Contudo, só a primeira parte, até a letra C, foi publicada em 1888. Seu dicionário contém definições claras e precisas bem como informações de natureza fonética e etimológica.
A posição de Macedo Soares que pugnava pelo reconhecimento da individualidade do português brasileiro está evidente nesta passagem:
“... no Brasil (...) todos (...) falamos e escrevemos nesta nossa língua
que os críticos de Lisboa censuram” (Soares, 1954: XXI). Afirma ainda no
Prólogo da 1ª parte do dicionário, publicada em 1888, que “já é tempo dos brasileiros escreverem como se fala no Brasil”.
"recolhendo
regionalismos vocabulares no Paraná, Minas e São Paulo."
Well said: regional vocabulary; that is what it is. We all speak regional vocabularies.
“... no Brasil (...) todos (...) falamos e escrevemos nesta nossa língua
que os críticos de Lisboa censuram” (Soares, 1954: XXI).
Those who criticize are the Brazilians themselves. You always want to make it look that the Portuguese criticise the way Brazilians speak.
Brazilians do even worst, they keep telling all the time it is Portuguese people that speak correct. Brazilians are the strongest critics of the wrights and wrongs of Brazilian Portuguese.
Drop the subject! You look like an obsessed xenophobic and you are making it look bad for the Brazilian Portuguese way of speaking.
There are so many things about Brazilian Portuguese that YOU ARE impeding from being discussed. You are the person that is boycotting Brazilian Portuguese.
I came from a Brazilian school to a Portuguese one four years ago and no one ever told me I did not speak or write Portuguese. I never lost any marks for writing Brazilian Portuguese, contrary to my Portuguese school fellows that lost marks when they did something wrong.
I get the Portuguese equivalent to my Brazilian regionalisms marked on my paper but never lost any marks or was ever told it was wrong, while everyone else was losing marks and marked wrong when they made a mistake, although I am also Portuguese.
''Talvez esse abismo entre escrita e fala seja conseqüência
da contínua e duradoura presença da
tradição portuguesa no Brasil que ditou, ou ainda
dita, o perfil das normas (no sentido de gramática
normativa) da nossa gramática brasileira. Considerando
tal distanciamento, acredita-se que o ensino
de língua portuguesa, hoje, além de exigir do
professor as informações sobre os registros formais
de determinadas estruturas, exige que ele
conheça a variedade dominada pelo aluno. ''
fonte: http://www.multirio.rj.gov.br/nosdaescola/revista/_download/revista27.pdf
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