O erro de concordância "tu vai" ou "tu falou" é muito comum em algumas regiões do Brasil. O Santista (entenda-se os nascidos e criados em Santos) usam o "tu" e o verbo na 3ª pessoa do singular. Conheci até uma professora de português que falava assim. Será que dá para interpretar como um regionalismo?
Do you like Brazilian Portuguese?
>>>Linguists (McMahon, 1994,p. 45)* will tell you that with time languages have a tendency for simplification.
Skipping vowels is a way to simplifying language events because when you shorten words and sentences you say more with less.
Most likely the current European Portuguese variation is an aged (seasoned) version of Portuguese. In other words, linguistic evolution got EP to the stage were simplification became a factor (Jackendoff, 2003)** .<<<
Ca mia senhor quiso Deus fazer tal,
quando a faz, que a fez sabedor
de todo ben e de mui gran valor,
e con todo est'é mui comunal
ali u deve; er deu-lhi bon sen,
e des i non lhi fez pouco de ben,
quando non quis que lh'outra foss'igual.
Ca en mia senhor nunca Deus pôs mal,
mais pôs i prez e beldad'e loor
e falar mui ben, e riir melhor
que outra molher; des i é leal
muit', e por esto non sei oj'eu quen
possa compridamente no seu ben
falar, ca non á, tra-lo seu ben, al.
[El-Rei D. Dinis]
Would D. Dinis agree with him? :o)
In the language evolution you may drop or assimilate letters. I do not agree that by some crazy fashion European Portuguese dropped all the vowels in the daily speech. There were many isolated villages no mass media communication changes in the language were slow mainly in the rural area, though could be faster in the court.
Unless everybody got so shook up with the 1775 earthquake and started dropping vowels. :O)
It looks we have always spoken using an algorithm with a ratio compression of two :O)
Or is it genetic? :D
Skipping vowels is a way to simplifying language events because when you shorten words and sentences you say more with less.
Most likely the current European Portuguese variation is an aged (seasoned) version of Portuguese. In other words, linguistic evolution got EP to the stage were simplification became a factor (Jackendoff, 2003)** .<<<
Ca mia senhor quiso Deus fazer tal,
quando a faz, que a fez sabedor
de todo ben e de mui gran valor,
e con todo est'é mui comunal
ali u deve; er deu-lhi bon sen,
e des i non lhi fez pouco de ben,
quando non quis que lh'outra foss'igual.
Ca en mia senhor nunca Deus pôs mal,
mais pôs i prez e beldad'e loor
e falar mui ben, e riir melhor
que outra molher; des i é leal
muit', e por esto non sei oj'eu quen
possa compridamente no seu ben
falar, ca non á, tra-lo seu ben, al.
[El-Rei D. Dinis]
Would D. Dinis agree with him? :o)
In the language evolution you may drop or assimilate letters. I do not agree that by some crazy fashion European Portuguese dropped all the vowels in the daily speech. There were many isolated villages no mass media communication changes in the language were slow mainly in the rural area, though could be faster in the court.
Unless everybody got so shook up with the 1775 earthquake and started dropping vowels. :O)
It looks we have always spoken using an algorithm with a ratio compression of two :O)
Or is it genetic? :D
Manel wrote:
>>>O português brasileiro é relativamente bem entendido por outros povos. Conheci brasileiros em Itália, e conseguiam comunicar-se bem em português. A mim ninguém entendia. A dificuldade específica do português europeu é a enorme redução vocálica. O catalão falado é muito difícil de entender pela mesma razão. <<<
I do not agree with you, other people do not understand Brazilians better than Portuguese. Brazilians use too much slang or are too colloquial most of the time.
"conseguiam comunicar-se bem em português." sim uns com os outros não com os Italianos...
"O calão falado" is even difficult to understand in Portugal if you are over 60 years old. Why someone speaks slang with people from other countries?
"A dificuldade específica do português europeu é a enorme redução vocálica." Speak slowly and you solved the problem.
"O catalão falado é muito difícil de entender pela mesma razão."
Try to speak slang with your granny.... Why on earth you expect Brazilian people to understand Portuguese slang?
I never saw a Brazilian that could not understand a Portuguese...
>>>O português brasileiro é relativamente bem entendido por outros povos. Conheci brasileiros em Itália, e conseguiam comunicar-se bem em português. A mim ninguém entendia. A dificuldade específica do português europeu é a enorme redução vocálica. O catalão falado é muito difícil de entender pela mesma razão. <<<
I do not agree with you, other people do not understand Brazilians better than Portuguese. Brazilians use too much slang or are too colloquial most of the time.
"conseguiam comunicar-se bem em português." sim uns com os outros não com os Italianos...
"O calão falado" is even difficult to understand in Portugal if you are over 60 years old. Why someone speaks slang with people from other countries?
"A dificuldade específica do português europeu é a enorme redução vocálica." Speak slowly and you solved the problem.
"O catalão falado é muito difícil de entender pela mesma razão."
Try to speak slang with your granny.... Why on earth you expect Brazilian people to understand Portuguese slang?
I never saw a Brazilian that could not understand a Portuguese...
Alison,
We don't know much about how languages evolve. What we know is that languages evolve and, as they evolve, they become more simplified. Apparently EP was once spoken with open vowels. Presently EP speakers muffle or skip most vowels. Are EP speakers simplifying the spoken language? Probably. They are doing just that with the written language. An example is how EP is communicated by e-text.
Also, remember that the difficulty most Brazilians have is not with face to face communication with EP speakers. Their complain is more about not understanding EP though the media (radio, televison and film).
I truly believe that Brazilians have dificulty understanding spoken EP when it is presented to them for the first time through the media. I believe that it can be a traumatic experience to listen to a form of your own language and not being able to understand it.
It happend with my own daughter. She learned Portuguese with me in the USA in isolation from other EP speakers. So, although she understood me well, for my surprised I found out later that she could not understand other EP speakers. It took time an exposure for her to be able to understand other EP speakers besides me.
The issue with EP versus BP is that not too many Brazilans are willing to do get the xporuse they need to understand spoken EP, because many are prejudiced against the Portuguese people. This is called negative language attitude with resistance resulting.
In fact, in terms of numbers EP is spoken by a few when compared to BP. So, some Brazilains would say "Why bother trying to understand these people (EP speakers) if I don't like them anyway?"
Sould we, EP speakers, care? Personnaly I don't care because I understand BP and I believe that there will be always enough Brazilians making the effort to stay connected with EP.
Should we care about those Brazilians who are prejudiced against the Portuguese people and don't want to make the effort to stay connected?
No. We shouldn't care. A prejudiced person is a prejudiced person, and we all understand what prejudie does to people .
The first victims of prejudice are the prejudiced people themselves. They wil never win because prejudice results from ignorance and conceited.
We don't know much about how languages evolve. What we know is that languages evolve and, as they evolve, they become more simplified. Apparently EP was once spoken with open vowels. Presently EP speakers muffle or skip most vowels. Are EP speakers simplifying the spoken language? Probably. They are doing just that with the written language. An example is how EP is communicated by e-text.
Also, remember that the difficulty most Brazilians have is not with face to face communication with EP speakers. Their complain is more about not understanding EP though the media (radio, televison and film).
I truly believe that Brazilians have dificulty understanding spoken EP when it is presented to them for the first time through the media. I believe that it can be a traumatic experience to listen to a form of your own language and not being able to understand it.
It happend with my own daughter. She learned Portuguese with me in the USA in isolation from other EP speakers. So, although she understood me well, for my surprised I found out later that she could not understand other EP speakers. It took time an exposure for her to be able to understand other EP speakers besides me.
The issue with EP versus BP is that not too many Brazilans are willing to do get the xporuse they need to understand spoken EP, because many are prejudiced against the Portuguese people. This is called negative language attitude with resistance resulting.
In fact, in terms of numbers EP is spoken by a few when compared to BP. So, some Brazilains would say "Why bother trying to understand these people (EP speakers) if I don't like them anyway?"
Sould we, EP speakers, care? Personnaly I don't care because I understand BP and I believe that there will be always enough Brazilians making the effort to stay connected with EP.
Should we care about those Brazilians who are prejudiced against the Portuguese people and don't want to make the effort to stay connected?
No. We shouldn't care. A prejudiced person is a prejudiced person, and we all understand what prejudie does to people .
The first victims of prejudice are the prejudiced people themselves. They wil never win because prejudice results from ignorance and conceited.
in Brazilian Portuguese:
calão = vulgar slang
gíria = slang
So, a palavra BACANA (=great, excellent) is considered GÍRIA, but never CALÃO.
On the other hand, a palavra XECA (= pussy) is considered CALÃO, but not GÍRIA.
Brazilians don't use much slang when they speak, not more, not less than an average American on Italian. Cariocas (Brazilians from Rio) tend to use more (local) slang, and that's it. But don't put the = between Rio and Brazil and Cariocas and Brazilians.
On the other hand, many times Portuguese people consider every Brazilianism as ''slang''. This is a wrong approach. In fact, ''ratinho'' (little rat) is a slang for biology term ''camungondo'' (mouse) and not the opposite.
calão = vulgar slang
gíria = slang
So, a palavra BACANA (=great, excellent) is considered GÍRIA, but never CALÃO.
On the other hand, a palavra XECA (= pussy) is considered CALÃO, but not GÍRIA.
Brazilians don't use much slang when they speak, not more, not less than an average American on Italian. Cariocas (Brazilians from Rio) tend to use more (local) slang, and that's it. But don't put the = between Rio and Brazil and Cariocas and Brazilians.
On the other hand, many times Portuguese people consider every Brazilianism as ''slang''. This is a wrong approach. In fact, ''ratinho'' (little rat) is a slang for biology term ''camungondo'' (mouse) and not the opposite.
in Brazilian Portuguese:
calão = vulgar slang
gíria = slang
So, a palavra BACANA (=great, excellent) is considered GÍRIA, but never CALÃO. The same is true of expressions like BAITA DE UM ABACAXI (=big problem).
On the other hand, a palavra XECA (= pussy) is considered CALÃO, but not GÍRIA. The same is true of the word RAPARIGA (=hooker or easy lady)
Brazilians don't use much slang when they speak, not more, not less than an average American on Italian. Cariocas (Brazilians from Rio) tend to use more (local) slang, and that's it. But don't put the = between Rio and Brazil and Cariocas and Brazilians.
On the other hand, many times Portuguese people consider every Brazilianism as ''slang''. This is a wrong approach. In fact, ''ratinho'' (little rat) is a slang for biology term ''camundongo'' (mouse) and not the opposite.
calão = vulgar slang
gíria = slang
So, a palavra BACANA (=great, excellent) is considered GÍRIA, but never CALÃO. The same is true of expressions like BAITA DE UM ABACAXI (=big problem).
On the other hand, a palavra XECA (= pussy) is considered CALÃO, but not GÍRIA. The same is true of the word RAPARIGA (=hooker or easy lady)
Brazilians don't use much slang when they speak, not more, not less than an average American on Italian. Cariocas (Brazilians from Rio) tend to use more (local) slang, and that's it. But don't put the = between Rio and Brazil and Cariocas and Brazilians.
On the other hand, many times Portuguese people consider every Brazilianism as ''slang''. This is a wrong approach. In fact, ''ratinho'' (little rat) is a slang for biology term ''camundongo'' (mouse) and not the opposite.
I still don't know why these Brazilians won't accept the fact that "Brazilian Portuguese" isn't a separate language, but a variation of the Portuguese spoken in Portugal.
Because Brazilian make 90% of all ''Portuguese speakers'' speakers.
It's better to speak correct Brazilian than erroneous ''Portuguese''.
Portuguese people like to accept Brazilian speakers automatically when they count numbers of speakers of Portuguese language.
But, when it comes to '''Brazilian usage'' and ''right to being different'' they say: ''This is full of grammar mistakes. This is not Portuguese. This is Brazilian slang. Educated Brazilians don't speak like that''.
I am sorry to inform you, but no Brazilians says CHAMEM-NO ou CHAMO-ME. Brazilian grammar is accepted even by educated Brazilians so CHAMEM ELE and ME CHAMO is a FACT and not ''lousy grammar'' (things Portuguese people say when they give ''marks'' to language spoken in Brazil)
So, Portuguese position on Brazilian usage/reality is pretty false.
It's better to speak correct Brazilian than erroneous ''Portuguese''.
Portuguese people like to accept Brazilian speakers automatically when they count numbers of speakers of Portuguese language.
But, when it comes to '''Brazilian usage'' and ''right to being different'' they say: ''This is full of grammar mistakes. This is not Portuguese. This is Brazilian slang. Educated Brazilians don't speak like that''.
I am sorry to inform you, but no Brazilians says CHAMEM-NO ou CHAMO-ME. Brazilian grammar is accepted even by educated Brazilians so CHAMEM ELE and ME CHAMO is a FACT and not ''lousy grammar'' (things Portuguese people say when they give ''marks'' to language spoken in Brazil)
So, Portuguese position on Brazilian usage/reality is pretty false.
Allison
>>I do not agree with you, other people do not understand Brazilians better than Portuguese. Brazilians use too much slang or are too colloquial most of the time<<
I do not agree with your statement at all. I have been to both countries and to me and to other people I know that are non-Portuguese but native Romance language speakers the accent that is more understandable is the accents around Brasilia, Florianopolis, and a few say educated Sao Paulo speech is the most understandable. Ep can sound really muffled and in many ways has the same unintelligability as spoken French. I also failed to mention that the most beutiful and one of the most intelligable accents I heard was educated Cape Verdean speech (not krioulo). I think the music of Cesaria Evora can show you the beauty of their speech patterns on those islands.
I can personally understand spoken Eu only after a few days of constantly hearing it but that is the Lisboan accent. On the otherhand, I still have difficulties understanding Algarvan and Azorian and I do not think I will never clearly be able to understand them.
Also Gallego is completely intelligable.
>>I do not agree with you, other people do not understand Brazilians better than Portuguese. Brazilians use too much slang or are too colloquial most of the time<<
I do not agree with your statement at all. I have been to both countries and to me and to other people I know that are non-Portuguese but native Romance language speakers the accent that is more understandable is the accents around Brasilia, Florianopolis, and a few say educated Sao Paulo speech is the most understandable. Ep can sound really muffled and in many ways has the same unintelligability as spoken French. I also failed to mention that the most beutiful and one of the most intelligable accents I heard was educated Cape Verdean speech (not krioulo). I think the music of Cesaria Evora can show you the beauty of their speech patterns on those islands.
I can personally understand spoken Eu only after a few days of constantly hearing it but that is the Lisboan accent. On the otherhand, I still have difficulties understanding Algarvan and Azorian and I do not think I will never clearly be able to understand them.
Also Gallego is completely intelligable.
>>>I am sorry to inform you, but no Brazilians says CHAMEM-NO ou CHAMO-ME. Brazilian grammar is accepted even by educated Brazilians so CHAMEM ELE and ME CHAMO is a FACT and not ''lousy grammar'' (things Portuguese people say when they give ''marks'' to language spoken in Brazil)<<<
Just try Brazilian football they are great with grammar:
São Paulo Futbol Clube:
"Amoroso - Durante a semana arrumou uma confusão incrível e tumultuou o ambiente com especulações sobre sua renovação. Mas na hora do jogo fez o que prometeu e resolveu a partida. É sem dúvida o melhor jogador do SPFC na atualidade, chamem-no de mercenário ou não, é um craque."
http://www.saopaulofc.com.br/news.php?cod=23720
>>>But, when it comes to '''Brazilian usage'' and ''right to being different'' they say: ''This is full of grammar mistakes. This is not Portuguese. This is Brazilian slang. Educated Brazilians don't speak like that''. <<<
Grammar mistakes are grammar mistakes in Portugal and in Brazil!
Just try Brazilian football they are great with grammar:
São Paulo Futbol Clube:
"Amoroso - Durante a semana arrumou uma confusão incrível e tumultuou o ambiente com especulações sobre sua renovação. Mas na hora do jogo fez o que prometeu e resolveu a partida. É sem dúvida o melhor jogador do SPFC na atualidade, chamem-no de mercenário ou não, é um craque."
http://www.saopaulofc.com.br/news.php?cod=23720
>>>But, when it comes to '''Brazilian usage'' and ''right to being different'' they say: ''This is full of grammar mistakes. This is not Portuguese. This is Brazilian slang. Educated Brazilians don't speak like that''. <<<
Grammar mistakes are grammar mistakes in Portugal and in Brazil!
Well, I believe the original topic was if Brazilian Portuguese was "liked" or not... Well, I've been living in the US for the past 6 years and I am very happy to say that most people say they like very much. Someone (waaaay before) mentioned we spoke in a very slow pace, which is true. I consider myself to be fluent, and I've been practicing speech after I heard a Brazilian girl do a presentation in college. You are right "we do speak slowly" when compared to the pace of English, we stretch out the words too much. I did not know (or didn't want to think about) there was so much ...hmm, not hatred but antagonism and aversive opinions towards Brazilians, but I guess we do have obnoxious, aggressive people. I just hope we don't sound retarded (said by another person) to everybody ;-)
Para tos : To all !
Dei muitas gargalhadas, no que li ; cada um defendendo sua origem e suas concepicoes.
Porque todos, falam o "portugues" ; E cada qual com seu acento e maneiras deferentes de expressar a mesma lingua, escrevendo em ingles.
Nao sou um liguista , nao sou literario, or scholarly or iven scholar.
Eu sou um Brasileiro,terceira geracao de portugues por parte de Pai, e decendente de Indio (nativo) e Africanos por parte de mae, e ainda minha lingua e' o PORTUGUESE................
Dei muitas gargalhadas, no que li ; cada um defendendo sua origem e suas concepicoes.
Porque todos, falam o "portugues" ; E cada qual com seu acento e maneiras deferentes de expressar a mesma lingua, escrevendo em ingles.
Nao sou um liguista , nao sou literario, or scholarly or iven scholar.
Eu sou um Brasileiro,terceira geracao de portugues por parte de Pai, e decendente de Indio (nativo) e Africanos por parte de mae, e ainda minha lingua e' o PORTUGUESE................
I know about the rules. I just rote in portuguese to make a point.that the world istill a babell tawer, that yet there is'nt a superior language. And if we agree with that we are seying (englhis is the superior language or Franch )