Yves Cortez

<<<<
Take example of Stilicho, magister militum. The Germans moved to Rome, they served in army, they became Roman citizens and their children spoke Vulgar Latin with Germanic influences and they defended their country and the Roman style of life against the Germans invaders.
>>>>

That sounds to me as the most probable scenario, and this process of vulgarization/barbarization of a language can be seen even today in slum districts with heavy immigration background. First the Roman language was vulgarized, then the whole Roman imperium.

The Latin language was not vulgarized because a few Germans came to the Empire and acquired the Roman citizenship. They didn't made the slightest impact on Latin. Vulgar Latin was the natural evolution of the Latin language whereas Classical Latin was a fossilized and artificial version used for poetry, legalese, etc. In US there are 40 millions of Hispanic and that does not mean that English is vulgarizing.

Bilan (provisoire) sur les étymons actuels et anciens signifiant {guerre}.





FAMILLE ROMANE

ancien catalan <gera> <guera> <guerra>
ancien français <gair> <gierre> <guere> <guerre> <gwere> <gwerre> <waire> <were> <werre>
arpitan <guêrra>
bergamasque <guèra>
castillan <guerra>
catalan <guerra>
corse <guèrra>
français <guerre>
frioulan <vuere>
galicien <guerra>
gascon <guèrra>
gênois <guæra> <guerra>
ligure <guæra>
médiolatin <guerra>
normand aurignais <dgeurre>
normand continental <gùerre>
normand guernesiais <djère> <guère>
normand jersiais <dgèrre>
normand sercquiais <gyer>
occitan <guèrra>
italien <guerra>
piedmontais <guèra>
portugais <guerra>
saintongeais <ghaere> <ghére> <guiare>
sicilien <guerra>
wallon <guere> <guére> <guêre>

roumain <război>

latin <bellum>





FAMILLE GERMANIQUE

allemand <Krieg>
bas-saxon <krieg>
danois <krig>
féroïen <kríggj>
frison <kriich>
luxembourgeois <krich>
néerlandais <krijg>
norvégien <krig>
suédois <krig>

allemand <Orlog>
ancien haut-allemand <urliugi>
frison <oarloch>
moyen haut-allemand <urliuge> <urlouge>
néerlandais <oorlog>
vieil-anglais <orlege>
vieux-norrois < ørlog>

ancien français (langue romane) <guerre> <gwerre> <uuerre> <werre> (etc)
anglais <war>
moyen-anglais <guere> <guerre> <ware> <were> <weire>
scots <weir>
vieil-anglais <werre> <wyrre>

ancien haut-allemand <gund>
vieil-anglais <guð>
vieux-norrois <gunnr>

islandais <ófriður>
vieux-norrois <ófriðr>

islandais <stríð>

The homogeneity of the Romance languages regarding the name for war is now well documented and contrasts to the multitude of names in Germanic languages. Why did not one single Roman language uses Latin bellum is mysterious?

From http://www.bartleby.com/61/63/W0026300.html

The chaos of war is reflected in the semantic history of the word war. War can be traced back to the Indo-European root *wers–, “to confuse, mix up.” In the Germanic family of the Indo-European languages, this root gave rise to several words having to do with confusion or mixture of various kinds. One was the noun *werza–, “confusion,” which in a later form *werra– was borrowed into Old French, probably from Frankish, a largely unrecorded Germanic language that contributed about 200 words to the vocabulary of Old French. From the Germanic stem came both the form werre in Old North French, the form borrowed into English in the 12th century, and guerre (the source of guerrilla) in the rest of the Old French-speaking area. Both forms meant “war.”

Tim : « One was the noun *werza–, “confusion,” which in a later form *werra– was borrowed into Old French, probably from Frankish, a largely unrecorded Germanic language that contributed about 200 words to the vocabulary of Old French. »

Même en admettant cette hypothèse pour l'ancien français (emprunt à une ancienne langue germanique), comment expliquer le succès du même étymon de l'Atlantique à l'Adriatique et de la Normandie à la Sicile ?

<<Conclusion : <Krieg> & <Wirren> ne sont pas synonymes, même si leurs champs sémantiques respectifs sont voisins et même adjacents. >>

Yes, but isn't this close enough? Does Wirren *have* to mean 'guerre'?

Some [Random House Unabridged; Online Etymology Dictionary] place the borrowing of English "war" in late Old English, as 'werre' < Old Norman French < directly from Gmc. (cf. OHG werra - strife; OE werian - to make war upon, skipping a French/Frankish step altogether.

This would relate it to the Old French word, but not derive from it, as the French word shows the g- prefix early on, leading to believe that the Norman word was borrowed later/again from a similar but different Germanic source other than Old French.

This being true, there must have been at some point a group (at least two) of germanic languages that shared the *werra word meaning "war".

Evidence for the Central French w- > gw- change is noted from several Old English (Domesday Book) sources (cf. Gollesberge [French influenced] vs. Wanesberge [native]; Guenistetone for Wenistetone, Gudhen vs. Wuduhenn, etc), indicating the French g- prefix event occurred prior to, or at the least concurrent with the intrusion of Norman 'werre' into English.

"Evidence for the Central French w- > gw- change is noted from several Old English (Domesday Book) sources (cf. Gollesberge [French influenced] vs. Wanesberge [native]; Guenistetone for Wenistetone, Gudhen vs. Wuduhenn, etc), indicating the French g- prefix event occurred prior to, or at the least concurrent with the intrusion of Norman 'werre' into English."

-- Pas si simple.

L'administration normande en Angleterre a vite adopté la graphie 'francienne' pour l'usage officiel (d'où 'Guenistetone' pour 'Wenistetone'), mais le dialecte normand a préservé jusqu'à nos jours la prononciation "v" pour le "w" de mots germaniques.

Les noms de famille 'Guillaume', 'Guillemin', 'Gauthier', 'Guibert' sont en Normandie 'Vuillaume', 'Vuillemin', 'Vautier', 'Vuibert' etc.

Un autre mot, d'origine supposée latine mais qui a fait des allers-retours intéressants entre domaine roman et germanique, est l'ang. 'waste'. Il viendrait d'un radical latin, et aurait bifurqué en français entre des racines donnant respectivement 'dévaster', 'vaste', et 'gâter' (='to waste'), 'gâtine' (néerl. 'woestijne'), ces derniers ayant été reélaborés par le francique ou à son contact.

Ce radical s'est retrouvé en allemand ('Wüste' = 'désert') mais pas en scandinave, qui n'a gardé que 'öde' pour 'désert', et 'skad-' pour 'gâter'.

Le couple 'gâter'-'vaste' a été transmis jusqu'en italien ('guasto'-'vasto'), mais pas en espagnol.

Je suis certain que la généalogie de 'waste'-'vaste'-'gâter'-'Wüste' pourrait nous éclairer sur les origines de 'guerre'-'war'.

"waste" [<Norman "wast"/"waster"; cognate to Fr. g(u)aster] is indeed a puzzle, showing features of both germanic (initial w sound [cf. OE "westen/"westan"]) and Latin ("a" vowel in stem [Lat. "vastare"]).

However, vowel sounds are invariably less stable than consonants, and the most plausible origin of English "waste"/ Fr. gâter, would be a germanic one with a variation of the vowel ("a"<"o", cf. French "danger"<"dongier" [infl. by "dam"], < Latin "domniarium"), the "v" as "w" having converted centuries before and being ruled out. The "waste/gâter" anomaly is unique. Were there more instances of ML "v" as "w" > "gu" I could agree to Lat "vastare", but one isolation, no.

As far as Norman pronunciation of "w" as "v", I can definitely see that. Scandinavian was first to change germanic "w" into "v", so a "w" sound would have been wholly uncouth to the Normans. "v" in werre (as "verre") would naturally have converted to a "w" in English (cf. ON veikr > ME weak; vigt > wight; etc) so there is no problem here. It even helps to support the claim.

<<"waste" [<Norman "wast"/"waster"; cognate to Fr. g(u)aster] is indeed a puzzle, showing features of both germanic (initial w sound [cf. OE "westen/"westan"]) and Latin ("a" vowel in stem [Lat. "vastare"]). >>

Wouldn't 'vāstāre' in Latin produce an Old French *vaister > vaîter,vaître in Modern French?: the Latin long a('ā') universally becoming a diphthong in Old French (as 'ai')?

This would push a Latin origin for Old French 'guaster' even further into the realm of uncertainty no?

The only other instance I know of where Latin v- becomes g- is in French gaine (I think there might be a circumflex over the i) from Latin vagina.

It may be explained here by cultural influence from the Catholic church, as you're sure that teaching on sexual purity would have come from the clergy, and their use of Latin may have included pronunciation of v as u/w as in old Latin

"Gaîne" < "vagina" can be otherwise explained. it depends on where the stress was placed

vāgī'na or vā'gīna

If it's vā'gīna (wā'gīna), then I can see it easily corrupting into "gaîne"

otherwise

vāgī'na (the stress English speakers place on the word) would result in "gaîne" being a reduplicated form--the initial syllable almost becoming lost (*agína>*gagína/gaína>gaîne)

who know? All I know is that for initial "v" to become "g" in only two words is not enough to constitute any pattern

<<vāgī'na (the stress English speakers place on the word) would result in "gaîne" being a reduplicated form--the initial syllable almost becoming lost (*agína>*gagína/gaína>gaîne)
>>

I can see 'vagína' becoming 'gaína' then 'gaîne' due to the stress on -gí- with compensatory flipping of vowels around. This type of letter-flipping is quite common in French (historia > histoire, dictionarius > dictionaire)

However, I see more possibility with 'vágína' as 'wágína'>'gwáíne' resulting from ecclesiastical influence. If this is the case, why then would only vagina be pronounced with a 'w' sound?

'guest' : « <<Conclusion : <Krieg> & <Wirren> ne sont pas synonymes, même si leurs champs sémantiques respectifs sont voisins et même adjacents. >>

Yes, but isn't this close enough? Does Wirren *have* to mean 'guerre'? ».

Oui <Wirren> doit impérativement signifier {guerre} pour faire partie de l'ensembles des étymons romanogermaniques actuels qui signifient {guerre}. Or ce n'est pas le cas : <Wirren> ≠ {guerre}. Pareil pour un mot en français cette fois : <chasse> ≠ {guerre}.




'Guest' : « Some [Random House Unabridged; Online Etymology Dictionary] place the borrowing of English "war" in late Old English, as 'werre' < Old Norman French < directly from Gmc. (cf. OHG werra - strife; OE werian - to make war upon, skipping a French/Frankish step altogether. »
Apparemment pas Etymoline selon qui on a : protogermanique *<werso> → ancien francique *<werra> → ancien français septentrional <werre> → vieil-anglais tardif <wyrre> <werre>.
Donc le lien entre l'ancien francique et l'ancien français est présenté comme patent par Etymonline. Reste à savoir si 1] cette transmission est avérée — 2] l'adoption par les langues romanes autres que l'ancien français s'est faite par autant de transmissions depuis l'ancien francique ou si c'est l'ancien français qui s'est diffusé dans toute la Romanie.

Mais tant que 1] n'est pas prouvé, il est difficile d'envisager 2].

Yaurait bien un 3] : toutes les langues romanes qui ont <guerra> et leurs variantes le tiennent de l'«italien ancien» (ororoman primitif).




'Guest' : « This would relate it to the Old French word, but not derive from it, as the French word shows the g- prefix early on, leading to believe that the Norman word was borrowed later/again from a similar but different Germanic source other than Old French. »
Je ne vois pas où tu veux en venir. Sur toutes les formes de l'ancien français (<gair> <gierre> <guere> <guerre> <gwere> <gwerre> <uuere> <waire> <were> <werre> etc), on en retrouve certaines en moyen-anglais :

From that tyme **guerres** began to cease in Wales, for now Walschemen lyve lyke to Ynglische men.

The thrydde if eny man hade ryden in armoure in the realme to move eny **gwerre** ageyne the kynge.

Þer efter wæx suythe micel **uuerre** betuyx þe king & Randolf eorl of Cæstre.

So penyble in the **werre**, and curteis eke,
Ne moore labour myghte in **werre** endure,

And in the same yere abowte the feste of the Exaltacion of the Holy Crosse, the Scottes, luffynge trowble and **gwerre**, were gedred in xij. or xiij. M. in nowmbre, and xxxti spere men of Fraunce, intendynge to spoyle the northe costes of Ynglonde, but as God wolde thei hade a grete falle.

**Werre** destroyth lawe and also cyteys.




'Gues' : « Evidence for the Central French w- > gw- change is noted from several Old English (Domesday Book) sources (cf. Gollesberge [French influenced] vs. Wanesberge [native]; Guenistetone for Wenistetone, Gudhen vs. Wuduhenn, etc), indicating the French g- prefix event occurred prior to, or at the least concurrent with the intrusion of Norman 'werre' into English. »

<Windlesoran> → <Windsor> c'est <Guinesores> ou <Vindesores> ou <Windeskore> en ancien français.

<Wireceastre>/<Wigranceastre> → <Winchester> c'est <Goncestre>, <Guincestre>, <Vinchester>, <Viscestre>, <Wincestre> en ancien français.

<Wiltunscir> → <Wiltshire> c'est <Gultessire> en ancien français.

<Wealas> → <Wales> c'est <Gales>, <Galeys>, <Galis>, <Gals>, <Galys>, <Guales>, <Gualles>, <Waels>, <Wales>, <Wals> en ancien français.

<Wærincwicum> → <Warwick> c'est <Cargueit>, <Guivic>, <Wargueit>, <Warguit> en ancien français.

"The only other instance I know of where Latin v- becomes g- is in French gaine"

-- Il y en a d'autres, par ex.:
. lat 'vespa' (='wasp') --> fr. 'guèpe'
. lat 'vadum' (='ford') --> fr. 'gué'
. lat. 'viscum' (='mistletoe') --> fr. 'gui'

L'explication officielle des dictionnaires étymologiques est (comme pour 'vagina' --> 'gaine') que ce sont des mots latins qui auraient été transmis à travers une langue germanique, ou "sous l'influence du francique"...

IMPORTANT: en italien 'vespa' (comme chacun sait) est resté 'vespa' tandis que 'gué' est 'guado'.

Donc (pour en revenir au sujet de départ), ne serait-on pas en train d'imputer à des interactions roman/germanique des phénomènes INTERNES au proto-roman ou vieil-italien dont Y.Cortez postule l'existence?...