Yves Cortez
<<. lat 'vespa' (='wasp') --> fr. 'guèpe'
>>
According to most sources, French guèpe is of Frankish/germanic origin, not Latin.
Wiktionary, however, has it as a conflation of germanic wespa/waspa/wæspa and Latin vespa. All other major Romance languages show the Latin "v" (Sp. avispa, It. vespa, Rom. viespe).
Considering the mundane, rural and agricultural nature of the word, rather than it being learned or administrative (most Frankish loans into Old French deal with rural life), I would agree that it is germanic in origin, which would disqualify it from the list.
---
Online Etymology Dictionary cites French gué and Italian guado as Germanic loanwords, akin to Old English wæd (ford, sea) and wadan - to go, wade; akin to Latin vadere/vadum but not from it.
--gui is attested from guis < viscum
Add to the list : )
<<--gui is attested from guis < viscum >>
Alongside of OF 'vis' < viscum
both forms existed: the usual expectation 'vis' as well as the anomaly 'guis', making the existence of this doublet in itself an intrigue
<<From that tyme **guerres** began to cease in Wales, for now Walschemen lyve lyke to Ynglische men.
The thrydde if eny man hade ryden in armoure in the realme to move eny **gwerre** ageyne the kynge.
Þer efter wæx suythe micel **uuerre** betuyx þe king & Randolf eorl of Cæstre.
So penyble in the **werre**, and curteis eke,
Ne moore labour myghte in **werre** endure,
And in the same yere abowte the feste of the Exaltacion of the Holy Crosse, the Scottes, luffynge trowble and **gwerre**, were gedred in xij. or xiij. M. in nowmbre, and xxxti spere men of Fraunce, intendynge to spoyle the northe costes of Ynglonde, but as God wolde thei hade a grete falle.
**Werre** destroyth lawe and also cyteys.>>
I can easily see from the Middle English excepts you provided two things:
1). Later forms of Middle English show forms in both g- and w-, with w- being more common. Later sample dialects where g- exists, however, indicate origin from the more outlying areas of the West Midland regions, where older forms of words would be expected to persist.
2). Early Middle English lacks g- forms, having instead only forms with w- or equilvalent (uu-, etc.)
naturally, what we would expect: the earliest form of the word comes from Norman (from whatever origin, Old French < Frankish or otherwise) and is later joined by its Central French cousin in g-. The g- word maybe is deemed too "French", I dunno, and it's quit (no hate there on the French) and "war" wins the war (pun intended : )
<<ou si c'est l'ancien français qui s'est diffusé dans toute la Romanie.
>>
I have always held to that belief personally.
The forms of words in Romance general are too close to the French words to be cognate, rather they indicate influence or borrowing.
Given the role of French during Mediaeval times, and the influence of the Franks, and Normans in Southern Europe and elsewhere, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Are there now too much or not enough parallels and similitudes between the Romance languages? Some important words (and grammar) are identical for all (guerre), some are different (si/oui)- what does it prove in the end?
"Online Etymology Dictionary cites French gué and Italian guado as Germanic loanwords, akin to Old English wæd (ford, sea) and wadan - to go, wade; akin to Latin vadere/vadum but not from it."
. Le radical 'wad-' est présent en néerl. ("gué" = "doorwaadbare plaats") et en scand. (suéd. "vadställe") alors que l'all. n'a que "Furt", analogue à "ford". Possible que le fr. ait transmis à l'ital. la forme germanisée "guado", mais en esp. le mot est "vado" — not only akin to Lat."vadum" but certainly from it.
. "Wespe / guêpe": le radical germanique originel est 'weps-' (comme actuel norv. 'veps'), pas 'wesp-'. Donc, l'all. "Wespe" et l'ang. "wasp" auraient été influencés par le latin, et le français aurait repris un mot latin à travers le germanique???
L'hypothèse de "conflations" romano-germaniques vaut peut-être pour "guêpe" et "gué" — comme pour "haut", synthèse de "altus" et "hoh"...
Tout ça est bien étrange quand on fouille un peu.
FAMILLE ROMANE
ancien catalan <vespa>
ancien français <guespe> <vespe> <waspe> <wepe> <wespe>
arpitan <vouépa> <vépa>
bergamasque <èspa>
castillan <avispa> <vespa>
catalan <vespa>
corse <vèspa>
français <guêpe>
frioulan <ğhespe>
galicien <avespa> <avéspora> <vespa>
gallo <gésp>
gascon <vèspa> <vrèspa>
gênois <vespâ>
italien <vespa>
latin <vespa>
ligure <vespa>
mirandais <biespera>
napolitain <vèspera>
normand contentinais <vêpe>
normand jersiais <vêpre>
normand sercquiais <vepr>
occitan <vèspa>
piedmontais <vespa>
portugais <vespa>
réghionais d'Émilie <vrespa>
romagnol <vispa>
roumain <viespe>
saintongeais <ghàepe>
sarde <espi>
valencien <avespa>
vénète <brespa> <vespa> <vrespa>
wallon <wasse> <wèpse> <wèsse>
arpitan <tôna>
galicien <nespra>
normand guernesiais <paemperluche>
FAMILLE GERMANIQUE
alémanique <Weschbe>
allemand <Wespe>
ancien haut-allemand <wafsa> <wafsi> <wefsa>
anglais <wasp>
danois <hveps>
moyen-anglais <wappes> <waps> <wasp>
moyen haut-allemand <wefse> <wespe>
moyen-néerlandais <wespe>
néerlandais <wesp>
norvégien <veps>
souabe <Wefze>
vieil-anglais <wæps> <wæsp> <weaps>
vieux-saxon <waspa>
danois <gedehams>
islandais <geitungur>
suédois <geting>
Is French <guêpe> coming from Latin <vespa> or from Germanic <wespe>?
<<Is French <guêpe> coming from Latin <vespa> or from Germanic <wespe>? >>
That's the question.
The initial gu- indicates germanic (cf. guetter < wahton; OFr guise < wisa, etc.)
Those who desire a Latin origin--or those who deem that when there's doubt always opt for a Latin origin--would like it to be otherwise.
According to many etymologists, germanic origin is cited *only* when a suitable Latin explanation cannot be found (and believe me, they do try). Such pseudo-science has attested such ridiculous origins for words like Latin 'flavus' for OFr blont (blond), etc. Stretch, Stretch, STRETCH harder please...
Another such example is the English word 'rinse' from MF rincer < from assumed OF recincier < hypothetical [i.e. maquillé, uh, I mean, 'made up'] VL *recentiāre ("to make recent, renew") < recens ("recent").
This is pure bull-ogna.
Whenever you have to "make up" words [i.e. *recentiāre] in order to explain an etymology to fit an agenda, it's no longer science. It's quackery.
*Recentiāre wouldn't even have meant 'rinse' had it existed:
(cleanse with water ≠ make more recent, renew)
so the definition doesn't even fit.
English "rinse" is a conflation of ME renchen - to rinse < ON hreinsa - to rinse (cf. Norwegian rense - to rinse); and MF rincer < OF raîncer < Gmc akin to Scand. hreinsa - to rinse; Germ "rein" - pure, clean. (Fits in meaning, form AND plausibility)
Many dialects still preserve 'rench' for rinse, in NE Britain and the US. Here in the US, it is often regarded (and jokingly ridiculed) as a red-neck mispronunciation and misspelling of 'rinse'.
Therefore, guêpe is from *wespa
<<OF raîncer >>
btw, that circumflex should be a diaeresis. I do not have those on my keyboard. sorry.
'raïncer' is the actual OF form. I was able to copy-paste it from another page : )
cheers
<<. Le radical 'wad-' est présent en néerl. ("gué" = "doorwaadbare plaats") et en scand. (suéd. "vadställe") alors que l'all. n'a que "Furt", analogue à "ford". Possible que le fr. ait transmis à l'ital. la forme germanisée "guado", mais en esp. le mot est "vado" — not only akin to Lat."vadum" but certainly from it.>>
Germanic representation goes beyond that to include:
ON vaða
O.Fris. wada
Dut waden
OHG watan
OE wadan
so it likely arose out of a Frankish form
<<. "Wespe / guêpe": le radical germanique originel est 'weps-' (comme actuel norv. 'veps'), pas 'wesp-'. Donc, l'all. "Wespe" et l'ang. "wasp" auraient été influencés par le latin, et le français aurait repris un mot latin à travers le germanique??? >>
This flipping of "sp" to "ps" and back again can easily be explained. It is a common feature in OE and other germanic languages. Confer English "grasp" < græps(i)an < PGmc graipison; E.Fris grapsen - to grasp, Eng "grip, grab"; Eng. "clasp" < ME claspe alt. of clapse < OE clyppan - to clasp; etc.
<<L'hypothèse de "conflations" romano-germaniques vaut peut-être pour "guêpe" et "gué" — comme pour "haut", synthèse de "altus" et "hoh"...
Tout ça est bien étrange quand on fouille un peu. >>
I think we can find mutual ground there. With all the work Charlemagne was doing to restore Old French words to more historical Latin forms, conflation is most likely what occurred here.
At least one thing is sure: Guillaume comes from Willem/Wilhelm/William, and not from Vilamus ;-).
<<ancien français <guespe> <vespe> <waspe> <wepe> <wespe>
>>
On second glance, that's exactly what it looks like.
Looks as if two things might have occurred:
1). It looks as if the word stems from "wespe", with an attempt having been made to normalize it to the Latin form.
AND/OR
2). (more probable) Both words co-existed for a short while [(g)wespe & vespe] with g(w)espe finally winning out in the end.
"According to many etymologists, germanic origin is cited *only* when a suitable Latin explanation cannot be found (and believe me, they do try). Such pseudo-science has attested such ridiculous origins for words like Latin 'flavus' for OFr blont (blond), etc. Stretch, Stretch, STRETCH harder please... "
--- On dirait Yves Cortez en personne qui s'adresse à nous !...
"This is pure bull-ogna.
Whenever you have to "make up" words [i.e. *recenti?re] in order to explain an etymology to fit an agenda, it's no longer science. It's quackery.
*Recenti?re wouldn't even have meant 'rinse' had it existed:
(cleanse with water ? make more recent, renew)
so the definition doesn't even fit.
English "rinse" is a conflation of ME renchen - to rinse < ON hreinsa - to rinse (cf. Norwegian rense - to rinse); and MF rincer < OF raîncer < Gmc akin to Scand. hreinsa - to rinse; Germ "rein" - pure, clean. (Fits in meaning, form AND plausibility) "
--- J'ai même souvenir d'un dictionnaire forgeant l'étymologie lat. "resincerare" = "to make sincere/genuine again".
Complètement dingue...
One more basic question: the transition from <w...> to <gu...> in French is quite frequent, but what exactly was the reason for this big step? To my feeling the two sonds <w...> and <gu...> have absolutely nothing in common. As an explanation I have read that Germanic <w> was difficult to pronounce for Gallo-Romans, but I do not see why it was difficult. Wallonie for example is still called Wallonie (<W> like in <water> or French <oui>) by the French speakers and nobody has difficulies...