Lobo est-ce que tu es Mallorqui?
What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language
Lobo Sun May 03, 2009 4:04 pm GMT
C'est bien cela. Le français a peu d'une langue germanique, sauf peut-être l'accent de certains dialectes, ou si vous préférez certaines intonations pour les non-francophones qui peut sembler davantage apparenter le français à certains dialectes germaniques qu'à d'autres du groupe des langues romanes,
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You and others are turning around in a loop if you always compare French with "truely Latin languages like Italian or Spanish". All modern Romance languages belong into one single group of languages wich all have not much in common anymore with classical Latin. There are two hypothesis to explain the big distance of Romance from Latin:
1) Some think that the ancestor of Romance is not Latin but "vulgar Latin", a hypothetical archaic language completely different from Ciceros Latin and existing before and parallel to classical Latin.
2) Another explanation is that after the fall of the Roman empire there has been a time of linguistic revolution, particularisme, insecurity and confusion, which was induced by the centuries lasting invasion and subsequent settlement of entire Germanic peoples, which led to a creolization of Latin and a splitting of the peoples language into thousands of dialects. Please be aware that Creolization doesn´t mean that 50% of the Latin vocabulary was mixed with 50% of Germanic vocabulary. The Latin-Germanic language contact just gave birth to a new kind of languages based on Latin vocabulary, but with reduced compexity in grammar and sytax - somewhat like Esperanto. Thousands of dialects were created in Europe, there was no reference language spoken in Rome anymore to bring some order into the situation. Subsequent processes of normalization and artificial re-Latinization reduced the number of croles to a handful of dialects which became official languages (Spanish, Italian, French etc.).
French is only a prototype of these Germano-Latin creoles where the traces of the Germanic language are most visible. French language must be compared with Latin and not with other Romance languages.
C'est bien cela. Le français a peu d'une langue germanique, sauf peut-être l'accent de certains dialectes, ou si vous préférez certaines intonations pour les non-francophones qui peut sembler davantage apparenter le français à certains dialectes germaniques qu'à d'autres du groupe des langues romanes,
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You and others are turning around in a loop if you always compare French with "truely Latin languages like Italian or Spanish". All modern Romance languages belong into one single group of languages wich all have not much in common anymore with classical Latin. There are two hypothesis to explain the big distance of Romance from Latin:
1) Some think that the ancestor of Romance is not Latin but "vulgar Latin", a hypothetical archaic language completely different from Ciceros Latin and existing before and parallel to classical Latin.
2) Another explanation is that after the fall of the Roman empire there has been a time of linguistic revolution, particularisme, insecurity and confusion, which was induced by the centuries lasting invasion and subsequent settlement of entire Germanic peoples, which led to a creolization of Latin and a splitting of the peoples language into thousands of dialects. Please be aware that Creolization doesn´t mean that 50% of the Latin vocabulary was mixed with 50% of Germanic vocabulary. The Latin-Germanic language contact just gave birth to a new kind of languages based on Latin vocabulary, but with reduced compexity in grammar and sytax - somewhat like Esperanto. Thousands of dialects were created in Europe, there was no reference language spoken in Rome anymore to bring some order into the situation. Subsequent processes of normalization and artificial re-Latinization reduced the number of croles to a handful of dialects which became official languages (Spanish, Italian, French etc.).
French is only a prototype of these Germano-Latin creoles where the traces of the Germanic language are most visible. French language must be compared with Latin and not with other Romance languages.
somewhat like Esperanto.
This is completely idiot! Esperanto is an artificial language, The romance languages are real languages and much more complicated than Esperanto after all. English is a sort of Esperanto amongst the Germanic languages
This is completely idiot! Esperanto is an artificial language, The romance languages are real languages and much more complicated than Esperanto after all. English is a sort of Esperanto amongst the Germanic languages
Ouest: « All modern Romance languages belong into one single group of languages wich all have not much in common anymore with classical Latin...French language must be compared with Latin and not with other Romance languages.»
Why? This is your own opinion. As long as I know they all belong to the same group. So, you mean Spanish can't be compared with Latin, and Italian can't be compared with Latin either, because we can't compare French with Italian and Spanish afterward. Is that right? That makes non-sense.
Why? This is your own opinion. As long as I know they all belong to the same group. So, you mean Spanish can't be compared with Latin, and Italian can't be compared with Latin either, because we can't compare French with Italian and Spanish afterward. Is that right? That makes non-sense.
Ouest : « All modern Romance languages belong into one single group of languages wich all have not much in common anymore with classical Latin. »
Ça commençait pourtant bien...
Ouest : « There are two hypothesis to explain the big distance of Romance from Latin:
1) [...]
2) [...] »
... et hop ! ça déraille...
Pour le rire :
« [...] after the fall of the Roman empire there has been a time of linguistic revolution [...] »
Une si grande "révolution" qu'on est submergé par l'avalanche d'exemples que Ouest nous fournit en quantité tous les jours...
« Please be aware that Creolization doesn´t mean that 50% of the Latin vocabulary was mixed with 50% of Germanic vocabulary. The Latin-Germanic language contact just gave birth to a new kind of languages based on Latin vocabulary, but with reduced compexity in grammar and sytax - somewhat like Esperanto. »
Mais on est prêt à avaler tout ce que tu voudras pour ne pas te contrarier, Ouest. Et d'ailleurs les gens du Moyen-Âge se sont tout spécialement concertés et entendus, voilà déjà 1.500 ans, afin te permettre d'étaler aujourd'hui — avec quel brio ! — ta virtuosité dans le registre du maniement délicat de subtils concepts linguistiques...
Ouest : « French language must be compared with Latin and not with other Romance languages. »
Et je dirais même que le français doit être comparé de préférence au proto-yougoslovaque nord-occidental : c'est plus mieux que si c'était moins pire, non ?
Ça commençait pourtant bien...
Ouest : « There are two hypothesis to explain the big distance of Romance from Latin:
1) [...]
2) [...] »
... et hop ! ça déraille...
Pour le rire :
« [...] after the fall of the Roman empire there has been a time of linguistic revolution [...] »
Une si grande "révolution" qu'on est submergé par l'avalanche d'exemples que Ouest nous fournit en quantité tous les jours...
« Please be aware that Creolization doesn´t mean that 50% of the Latin vocabulary was mixed with 50% of Germanic vocabulary. The Latin-Germanic language contact just gave birth to a new kind of languages based on Latin vocabulary, but with reduced compexity in grammar and sytax - somewhat like Esperanto. »
Mais on est prêt à avaler tout ce que tu voudras pour ne pas te contrarier, Ouest. Et d'ailleurs les gens du Moyen-Âge se sont tout spécialement concertés et entendus, voilà déjà 1.500 ans, afin te permettre d'étaler aujourd'hui — avec quel brio ! — ta virtuosité dans le registre du maniement délicat de subtils concepts linguistiques...
Ouest : « French language must be compared with Latin and not with other Romance languages. »
Et je dirais même que le français doit être comparé de préférence au proto-yougoslovaque nord-occidental : c'est plus mieux que si c'était moins pire, non ?
Ouest:«French is only a prototype of these Germano-Latin creoles where the traces of the Germanic language are most visible.»
Il nous manque encore des exemples concrets pour appuyer cette théorie à toi. Explique-nous ton idée davantage et le pourquoi de ce qui n'est finalement qu'une hypothèse. Nous attendons avec impatience. Moi, j'ai formulé quelques exemples, tu peux venir compléter.
Il nous manque encore des exemples concrets pour appuyer cette théorie à toi. Explique-nous ton idée davantage et le pourquoi de ce qui n'est finalement qu'une hypothèse. Nous attendons avec impatience. Moi, j'ai formulé quelques exemples, tu peux venir compléter.
<<There is nothing barbaric in French. It evolved from Latin. >>
Then French is wis 100% barbaric since the Roman was barbarian to the Greek. hehe
<<Ouest: where are the proofs for your assertions? >>
Common sense supports the findings. There need not be any hard evidence.
Then French is wis 100% barbaric since the Roman was barbarian to the Greek. hehe
<<Ouest: where are the proofs for your assertions? >>
Common sense supports the findings. There need not be any hard evidence.
<<Why? This is your own opinion. As long as I know they all belong to the same group. So, you mean Spanish can't be compared with Latin, and Italian can't be compared with Latin either, because we can't compare French with Italian and Spanish afterward. Is that right? That makes non-sense. >>
No.
I think you really get it, because you are an intelligent person, but you don't realise it...
It would be like comparing English to Scots--both have a substantial French/Latin inflow--and saying that Norman French never affected English because it shares the same words (largely) with Scots, another germanic language. When the truth is *both* were affected by the selfsame Frenchifying event in their history. So you must compare English to Old English and Scots to Old English to get the right perspective of where they each fit and how far they have diverged individually.
So it is with the Romance languages. They were all, to some extent, affected by the collapse of the Roman Empire and afterfollowing invasions which left them noteless to use as points of reference on how "Latin" they were. Interesting enough, however, the only argument Latin-purists can muster when defending the 'Romance from Latin' theory is by lateral comparisons with other Romance languages and hoping no one realises what's going on ;) [i.e. the argument that postulates: "if it's so in Romance Language A, B and C, then it must have been like this in Latin", etc.]
No.
I think you really get it, because you are an intelligent person, but you don't realise it...
It would be like comparing English to Scots--both have a substantial French/Latin inflow--and saying that Norman French never affected English because it shares the same words (largely) with Scots, another germanic language. When the truth is *both* were affected by the selfsame Frenchifying event in their history. So you must compare English to Old English and Scots to Old English to get the right perspective of where they each fit and how far they have diverged individually.
So it is with the Romance languages. They were all, to some extent, affected by the collapse of the Roman Empire and afterfollowing invasions which left them noteless to use as points of reference on how "Latin" they were. Interesting enough, however, the only argument Latin-purists can muster when defending the 'Romance from Latin' theory is by lateral comparisons with other Romance languages and hoping no one realises what's going on ;) [i.e. the argument that postulates: "if it's so in Romance Language A, B and C, then it must have been like this in Latin", etc.]
Then French is wis 100% barbaric since the Roman was barbarian to the Greek.
A 100% bullshit
A 100% bullshit
<<A 100% bullshit >>
Comme la défense de Français comme Latin sur ce forum
Comme la défense de Français comme Latin sur ce forum
The Greek were barbaric for the ancient Egyptians.
The Egyptians were barbaric for Romans. Closed circle.
The Egyptians were barbaric for Romans. Closed circle.
Comme la défense de Français comme Latin sur ce forum
Because it is. It's enough to read the sentence you wrote: 100% Latin. Compliments
Because it is. It's enough to read the sentence you wrote: 100% Latin. Compliments