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What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language
<<Français>>
The word 'Français' is not of Latin origin [*Frankisk]. Although it has a Latin "form" that is not the same thing. It is a germanic word [*frankon "javelin"]
Ouest:«French is only a prototype of these Germano-Latin creoles where the traces of the Germanic language are most visible.»
Lobo : « Il nous manque encore des exemples concrets pour appuyer cette théorie à toi. Explique-nous ton idée davantage et le pourquoi de ce qui n'est finalement qu'une hypothèse. Nous attendons avec impatience. Moi, j'ai formulé quelques exemples, tu peux venir compléter. » Au rythme où pleuvent les démonstrations de Ouest, je crains fort qu'il te faille encore attendre au moins 57 pages, mon pauvre Lobo... Leasnam : « Interesting enough, however, the only argument Latin-purists can muster when defending the 'Romance from Latin' theory is by lateral comparisons with other Romance languages and hoping no one realises what's going on ». Non, c'est faux. Les latinistes et les romanistes ne s'opposent pas sur les emprunts que les langues romanes ont fait au latin (en particulier à partir du Moyen-Âge et de l'essor de l'Université) : tous s'accordent à reconnaître l'absorption par le roman (ou les langues romanes) de nombreux vocables latins → les fameuse paires <apprendre>/<appréhender>, <avoué>/<avocat>, <écouter>/<ausculter>, <entier>/<intègre>, <étroit>/<strict>, <frêle>/<fragile>, <froid>/<frigide>, <grêle>/<gracile>, <hôtel>/<hôpital>, <noir>/<nègre>, <œuvrer>/<opérer>, <prêcheur>/<prédicateur>, <raide>/<rigide>, <sevrer>/<séparer>, <sire>/<seigneur> etc. Le différend porte sur la fraction du lexique roman originel (= hors emprunt) que les romanistes estiment romane et non latine. Le litige est même plus complexe qu'il n'y paraît puisqu'une forme d'allure plus "romane" que le terme latin associé (= emprunté tardivement au latin) pourrait après tout se révéler n'être qu'un premier emprunt au latin, simplement plus ancien que le tardif.
What makes French a Latin-Germanic mixed language
.......................................................................... What makes you ask this nonsense questions? French is derived from Latin The word 'Français' is not of Latin origin --------------------------------------- The words "Italian", "Portoguese" etc. are not from Latin origin too, so I suppose Italian, Portoguese etc. are Germanic too! Hey! Everything is magically German now! Even if 'Français' is not of Latin origin, what does it change??? The name of a language doesn't turn automatically the truth according to some foolish ideas some people have. You have one word, try to search for other 200.000 and then you can be right. Good luck
" You and others are turning around in a loop if you always compare French with "truely Latin languages like Italian or Spanish". All modern Romance languages belong into one single group of languages... "
Then, if french is no different from the romance group (no different to Spanish and Italian), why did you named this thread "what makes french ..." and not "what makes romance languages ..." ?? That all Romance languages are quite different from latin itself is not a surprise. It is not a hasard that latin itself is not included in the romance family. "wich all have not much in common anymore with classical Latin. " when a language has around 80% of its "core vocabulary" coming from classical latin, I wouldn't say it has not much in common with it... But it is true that romance languages are much closer together than they are to classical latin. Everyone here knows it. Saying that because Romance languages are quite distant from latin means that French is a Germano-latin mix is another story... " There are two hypothesis to explain the big distance of Romance from Latin: " There are much more than two theories... Especially if we include the more "exotic" or controviersal ones. The question we should ask is why would you always epose your own theory as the truth if yourself is concious that it is just one theory (a one that needs a more solid background to be considered as a serious one) " French is only a prototype of these Germano-Latin creoles where the traces of the Germanic language are most visible. French language must be compared with Latin and not with other Romance languages. " here we are... what was a theory two lines ago is now the deep truth in Ouest's mouth... " French is only a prototype of these Germano-Latin creoles where the traces of the Germanic language are most visible. " For the 100th time, please tell us what are these famous so much "most visible traces" ??? This is the subject of your thread, you could be able to talk about them... " The Latin-Germanic language contact just gave birth to a new kind of languages based on Latin vocabulary, but with reduced compexity in grammar and sytax - somewhat like Esperanto " then, what is germanic in it ??
<<Even if 'Français' is not of Latin origin, what does it change???
The name of a language doesn't turn automatically the truth according to some foolish ideas some people have. You have one word, try to search for other 200.000 and then you can be right. Good luck >> Settle Down. (And calm the F*** down. Sheesh) That post was in response to this one: <Comme la défense de Français comme Latin sur ce forum Because it is. It's enough to read the sentence you wrote: 100% Latin. Compliments > Where the repliant says the whole phrase "Comme la défense de Français comme Latin sur ce forum" was pure Latin. To which I replied, it wasn't due to the word "Français"
Citation from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_French :
From the third century on, Western Europe was invaded by Germanic tribes from the north and east, and some of these groups settled in Gaul. For the history of the French language, the most important of these groups are the Franks in northern France, the Alemanni in the German/French border, the Burgundians in the Rhône valley and the Visigoths in the Aquitaine region and Spain. Their language had a profound effect on the Latin spoken in their respective regions, altering both the pronunciation and the syntax. They also introduced a number of new words. Sources disagree on how much vocabulary of modern French comes from Germanic words, ranging from just 400 words [3] to 15% of modern vocabulary [4]. Changes in lexicon/morphology: the name of the language itself, français, comes from the Germanic Frank ('freeman'). The Franks referred to their land as Franko(n) which became Francia in Latin in the 3rd century (then an area in Gallia belgica, somewhere in modern-day Belgium or the Netherlands). several terms and expressions associated with their social structure (gars/garçon, maréchal) and military tactics (fief, flanc). a few colors derived from Frankish and other German languages (blanc, bleu, blond, brun, gris). other examples among the most usual words include auberge, fauteuil, laid, tuyau and many words starting with a hard g (like gagner, guerre) or with an aspired h (haine, hâte) [5] endings in -ard (from Frankish hard : bâtard), -and, -aud, -ais, -er, -ier and many verb endings in -ir ( choisir, jaillir). Changes in pronunciation: reintroduction of the vowel [y] reintroduction of consonant h (that no longer exists in modern French, however a Germanic h usually disallows liaison: les halles /lɛ'al/, les haies /lɛ'ɛ/, les haltes /lɛ'alt/, whereas a Latin h allows liaison: les herbes /lɛzɛrb/, les hôtels /lɛzotɛl/. reintroduction of consonant [w], probably pronounced as in Dutch between /v/ and /w/, and developing into /gw/ and then /g/ in modern French (hence French guerre whereas the English form keeps the /w/: war). profound changes in the vowel structures, caused by the Frankish stress. Unstressed syllabes were often lost (particularly syllabes with the final vowel), while vowels in stressed syllabes often became diphthong (e.g. tela -> TEla -> toile)[6] Changes in syntax: maintenance of cases (compared to Spanish or Italian): hence Old French had li murs (the wall) or li fils (the son) (Modern French le mur, le fils), respectively from Latin murus, filius. subject pronoun: always present before the verb, whereas it is not necessary in Spanish or Italian. The pronoun on (from hom/homme) is an adaptation of Germanic pronoun man(n)- (one, general you, singular they). adjective before the noun: pauvre homme, belle femme, vieil homme, grande table, petite table (however some adjectives are placed after the noun).
<<For the 100th time, please tell us what are these famous so much "most visible traces" ??? This is the subject of your thread, you could be able to talk about them...
>> Ok, we have done this 100 times already, but you ask for the 101th, so I will comply I don't know what the other posters feel are germanic qualities of French and Romance, but the way I see it is thus: (and I will use French as my byspel because it does show the most out of the Major Romance languages, but I am in no way *picking* on French or trying to single it out) 1). Lexicon. Though most of the vocab of French is Latin derived, it does have a significant non-Latin, specifically Germanic, orspring. This orspring spans from the earliest germanic borrowings in Latin all the way to the present day [Franglais]. The majority of this, however, comes from the era immediately after the Germanic invasions up to the present day. Byspels are 'regarder', 'toucher', 'danser', 'debut', 'rincer', 'choquer', 'gangue', 'maquiller', 'trinquer', 'weekend' 2). idioms/syntax --there is a tendency of French to Sprachbund with other languages in its region [Sprachbund] and this would include German. French just gives off a lift or air that it is similar to Germanic in several ways--like it has a germanic "ghost" about it, although it does most of the time seem like the other Romance languages. Certain verb constructions, like "as-tu un stylo" sound German, not Latinic, even if all the words have a latin etymon. And the non-prodrop quality and greater frequency of modifiers before nouns, also unlike its brethren. All of this is like a hint or flavor of germanic that cannot be ignored. 3). verbal constructions --though not limited solely to French, the passé composé has officially been ruled as a germanic emprunt, especially rules governing loosely the note of être vs avoir as the modal. High tendency toward, and frequency of, complex verbal constructions [more than one verb] is a tendency found in germanic languages neighboring on French. 4). sound --French sounds very different from most other Romance languages, and has sounds characteristic and rife in germanic languages [that's all I will say about that] Does this all add up to French = a germano-Latin hybrid. Of course not. French is not linguistically a germano-latin hybrid. The main influences of Germanic on French do not stem from the languages of the germanics [for the most part, but they *are* there; indelibly.] but from the Germanics themselves. *They* are the ones who have forged and altered the French language (some, such as Charlemagne, have done a lot even to guarantee that it be more "Latin-like"). So , that's what I think. You may fire when ready...
To ouest, the specialist of copy-paste...
We don't need once again the only copy-paste you seem able to do. Please read the previous pages... and prepare your arguments
PS: page 54, message of "guest guest"... If you can read french.
Can't you ?
Ouest et Leasnam, tout ce que vous avez écrit démontre certaines influences que les langues germaniques peuvent avoir eu sur le français, mais ne le définissent pas comme une espèce de langue germano-latine, si on parle du franglais, alors oui on s'en rapproche, je dis bien se *rapproche* d'une langue mixte de latin et de germanique, comme l'anglais pourrait l'être à certains égards.
Définir une langue latino-germanique serait vraiment une forme de français qui n'existe pas, pas même les dialectes les plus septentrionaux, tels que le wallon, le picard ou le normand parlé autrefois ne peuvent prétendre à ce titre. Je pense que vous essayez de créer un nouveau courant de pensée sur une langue qui de toute façon a retrouvé toute sa latinité dans sa propre forme à elle, il y a de cela assez longtemps. Donc, reconnaissez ce fait et arrêter de défendre l'indéfendable pour plutôt amener des points qui décrivent bien la réalité, car tout le monde sait parfaitement que le français est à sa base un dérivé du latin vulgaire, l'étymologie de la majorité des mots et la grammaire le disent et la syntaxe aussi, malgré les quelques exemples en paralèlle avec les langues germaniques qu'on peut retrouver sur wikipedia.
Leasnam,
Your latest comment is somewhat debatable but I must admit it makes sense. (Ouest's messages never make any). I don't fully with your point #3 — but you mention "though not limited solely to French" about 'passé composé', alright. This point would need a little bit more elaboration, i.e. as for the very restrictive use in the spoken language of future tense and subjunctive moods, which is loosely reminiscent of German and Dutch (and yes, here you can say that some sort of Teutonic ghost is haunting French...). IMHO it's just a matter of Sprachbund effect, you're right to point it out.
<<Donc, reconnaissez ce fait et arrêter de défendre l'indéfendable pour plutôt amener des points qui décrivent bien la réalité, car tout le monde sait parfaitement que le français est à sa base un dérivé du latin vulgaire, l'étymologie de la majorité des mots et la grammaire le disent et la syntaxe aussi, malgré les quelques exemples en paralèlle avec les langues germaniques qu'on peut retrouver sur wikipedia. >>
As a whole, I believe that the small, non-Latin influences upon the Romance languages over time (millennia) has significantly shifted it away from Proto-Italic. Whether this constitues a germao-latin hybrid to me is unknown, however, Romance languages--outside of lexis--are much nearer to Germanic languages than to Latin.
are much nearer to Germanic languages than to Latin.
Not at all. The Romance languages distinguish perfect and imperfect, the subjunctive mood is much more widespread than in Germanic languages. All these features are present in Latin
<<Not at all. The Romance languages distinguish perfect and imperfect, the subjunctive mood is much more widespread than in Germanic languages. All these features are present in Latin >>
That is an area where Romance and Latin agree, but the original post was not that Romance and Latin never agree, but that pound for pound, they are more like Germanic languages than Latin. That is actually true. Sure, there will always be exceptions like this one, where Latin and Romance will agree, but Romance and Germanic will agree more often. That I'm fairly wis about.
«however, Romance languages--outside of lexis--are much nearer to Germanic languages than to Latin.»
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